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Free Gaza / Palestine supporters: I have a question for you (Discussion about media) (lemmy.world)
submitted 1 day ago by dragontamer@lemmy.world to c/politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world
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Hey Gaza / Free Palestine guys,

I'm pissed about the Kamala loss but that's not important right now. I need to know what media you were using.

Where did Free Palestine/ Gaza memes and discussions start?

I'm worried that the discussion is a right wing disinformation campaign designed to make us tear each other apart. I cannot find any legitimate politician (even far left ones like Bernie Sanders, AOC, etc. etc) that would have pushed the message of 'Joe Biden / Kamala is just as bad as Trump on the issue of Gaza'.

The only ones who would push that message are right wing trolls who try to separate us. So now I want to track down and confirm my suspicions. Who meme'd this? Where did you hear it? Was it Twitter? TikTok? Reddit? Facebook? Instagram?

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

First, I want to point out a few things.

  1. Third Party voters, ie the Greens and PSL, swung 0 elections. This is a hard truth to look at for Democrats, ultimately it is unlikely that the genocide in Palestine made a large difference in the Harris campaign.

  2. I would not consider Bernie or AOC to be "far left," they are moderated by European standards. If you mean within the US government, then that makes more sense, but the US is an outlier globally with how right-wing it is on average, so that bit confused me.

To answer your question about Palestinian liberation, it began when Palestine was first being colonized, back in the early 20th century. Leftists all over have historically supported Palestinian Liberation this entire time, it is only as salient of an issue now because we can watch it on Social Media.

A book titled The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, documenting the genocide in Palestine since the mid 20th century in detail, came out in 2006. This has radicalized a lot of the western left in the modern era, but this is by no means the first time.

The Marxist-Leninist group Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine was formed in 1967, and was supported by the USSR. Incidentally, they called for a boycott of the Democrats and Republicans in the 2024 General Election (link to a translation from Arabic). They have been calling for a secular, single democratic Palestinian state to be occupied by former-Israelis and Palestinians alike, with full equality between them. This has been elaborated on in their 1969 book Strategy for the Liberation of Palestine.

Even then, the PFLP is just one group in Palestine, Palestinians and Leftists abroad have opposed it since the beginning. Albert Einstein wrote a letter to the New York Times in 1948 warning of fascist elements within the newly created state of Israel, and their treatment of Palestinian villiagers.

The fundamental difference that you are seeing is that the far-left has always opposed the Palestinian genocide, be they Communists, Anarchists, even moderates like Social Democrats. The US government, however, has strong economic ties to Israel, as they help assert power in the region, which allows the US to cement the Petro-Dollar as the global main currency. This means that within the US government, politicians are incentivized to minimize the appearance of genocide.

Free Palestine has been a movement for a century, it is only a more salient issue because the genocide has escalated in the last year and it is in full-view on social media.

[–] OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world 3 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (1 children)

There were undoubtedly some right wing/pro-Russia agitators trying to push the message that they're "just as bad" and likely some genuine believers saying this too, but the vast majority were not saying this. Most people opposed to Harris/Biden on this issue were simply opposed to the wholesale murder of innocents, and understood that Trump would be worse (e.g. the uncommitted movement said this explicitly).

From my perspective what was much more common was the use of this exact line of reasoning (like your post) to ignore/sideline people with legitimate humanitarian and political concerns. I can speak for myself: I oppose what I see as a genocide and America's complicity in it chills me to my core. I am not stupid enough to think Trump is better or even the same, and from the others I saw making this argument on Lemmy at least, they didn't seem to think that either.

In fact to the extent I tried to influence others it was to push the democrats to be better and hopefully actually win the election.

That didn't stop the accusations, though. I often explicitly wrote that Trump is worse and advocated voting dem, but it didn't make a difference. In fact just before and after the election, one user was convinced I just hated the democrats and was trying to suppress the vote.

I'm worried that the discussion is a right wing disinformation campaign designed to make us tear each other apart. I cannot find any legitimate politician (even far left ones like Bernie Sanders, AOC, etc. etc) that would have pushed the message of 'Joe Biden / Kamala is just as bad as Trump on the issue of Gaza'.

So 1) no legitimate politician pushed this message because it is a straw man. I agree with Bernie and AOC.

  1. I would argue the disinformation campaign was mainly running in the other direction. Apologists for the democrats' stance on this acted as though everyone who criticised the democrats was in fact using the straw man argument, and often implied it was a right wing/Russian misinformation campaign.

  2. The effectiveness of any genuine right wing agitators on this is dependent on the fact that people like me exist who have a genuinely different position on this than the dems. They stoke the division and let us fight it out. That doesn't mean you shouldn't push back on any claims that "they're the same" and it doesn't mean I should avoid voicing my opposition to genocide. What it means is, unless I respect that you are just opposed to false claims ("they're the same") and you respect that I am simply opposed to the killing of children (And not singing from Putin's hymn sheet), then we will tear each other apart.

Who meme'd this? Where did you hear it? Was it Twitter? TikTok? Reddit? Facebook? Instagram?

It was "memed" on the fucking news, for over a year now. It is not a meme, it is the reality we've all been living in which two groups of dishonest actors wanted to influence. The right/agitator influence of "they're just as bad" and the left/democrat influence of "these people support Trump/work for Putin." The dems wanted the issue buried so they didn't have to focus on what was clearly their weakest area. Because they have supported the killing and deep down, I believe they understand that this is morally unconscionable.

Anyway, just my two cents. If you take a step back from the election and just look at this as a disconnected political issue I would hope that we actually pretty much agree. So why would people like me be the enemy?

[–] dragontamer@lemmy.world 2 points 12 hours ago

I appreciate the viewpoint.

[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 3 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago)

Discussions about Palestinian liberation and ending US Support of Israel are longstanding for much more than the past year. However it's prominence, and the memes too, gained significant traction in the past year because Israel became fully engaged in the genocide of Gaza, expanding into the West Bank and also Lebanon. This genocide has been funded with the unconditional military aid of the United States, as well as defense on the international stage.

Anti-genocide sentiments are not any right-wing disinformation campaign. These are voters who want an alternative to funding genocide, which is still happening under the current administration.

The right-wing disinformation campaign is that Trump is the dove candidate. This was the case in 2016 too, as a way to paint Hillary as a warmonger (She was, but of course so is Trump). This is exactly the reason why Trump spoke very little about Israel/Gaza for most of the campaign, only with comments like that he'll "end the wars" without details.

This kind of disinformation campaign, painting Trump as a Dove, is only possible because of the foreign policy of Biden on Israel and Harris' failure to break from that policy. Ending the war with a permanent ceasefire is overwhelmingly popular, an arms embargo is also very popular. These are also the correct actions under both the US Leahy Law and international humanitarian law.

Polling has indicated for months that Harris would gain. significant votes in swing states and nationally. The decision by the Harris campaign to ignore these voters / take them for granted was a calculated decision. This was a choice the campaign made.

This left people with the genocide as their main issue with the following choices: back Harris and hope that she will part from Biden or at least be persuaded by public pressure despite the lack of separation from the current Biden Administration on the issue, protest vote with a 3rd party, or hope that just maybe trump will actually bring a ceasefire unlike the current administration.

As someone who's not directly affected, it's easy to choose option 1. I voted for Harris and told others to vote Harris too, despite the ongoing military support for the genocide. However, this becomes a much more unclear and difficult choice for those who are directly affected. It's hard to make the rational decision to vote for Harris when not only your loved ones have been killed by Israel with US weapons, but also the lack of empathy and consideration of the Harris campaign throughout the genocide. Palestinian Americans were denied a voice at the DNC. Instead what they heard was steadfast support of Israel and rhetoric about having the most lethal Military. That continued throughout the campaign. Seeing half of the support from Arab and Muslim Americans compared to 2020 isn't a surprise when this is the reality they have experienced from the campaign.

I also want to emphasize that anti-genocide sentiment is not only an issue of Arab and Muslim Americans. Half of the Jewish community also wants a permanent ceasefire too. Most people do.

Many people online, including Lemmy, are acting reactionary on this and want to place the blame on these voters. I understand where it's coming from. People are angry and terrified of another Trump Administration, and rightfully so. But this blame is misplaced, it's the Biden/Harris 2024 campaign that made the decision to run their campaign like this, and it was a failed strategy. It was also much more than just this issue that reduced voter turnout. 20 million less people voted for Democrats this election. Anti-genocide protest votes are only a small fraction of that. They were also completely up for grabs, all it took was rhetoric about support for an arms embargo.

The campaign made many many mistakes by running to the right at the expense of their base, by not running on progressive policies that are popular with both Democratic and Republican voters. This is ultimately a problem of neoliberalism, which works at the behest of capital interests and against the interests of the working class.

Quote

Our first matchup tested a Democrat and a Republican who “both agree with Israel’s current approach to the conflict in Gaza”. In this case, the generic candidates tied 44–44. The second matchup saw the same Republican facing a Democrat supporting “an immediate ceasefire and a halt of military aid and arms sales to Israel”. Interestingly, the Democrat led 49–43, with Independents and 2020 non-voters driving the bulk of this shift.

Quotes

In Pennsylvania, 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if the nominee vowed to withhold weapons to Israel, compared to 7% who said they would be less likely. The rest said it would make no difference. In Arizona, 35% said they’d be more likely, while 5% would be less likely. And in Georgia, 39% said they’d be more likely, also compared to 5% who would be less likely.

Quotes

Quotes

Quotes

Majorities of Democrats (67%) and Independents (55%) believe the US should either end support for Israel’s war effort or make that support conditional on a ceasefire. Only 8% of Democrats but 42% of Republicans think the US must support Israel unconditionally.

Republicans and Independents most often point to immigration as one of Biden’s top foreign policy failures. Democrats most often select the US response to the war in Gaza.

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

It came from Israel's actual actions. They're undergoing an extermination campaign in Northen Gaza, banned UNRWA which is the only reason Palestinians have not died of Starvation, executed the young, old, sick, weak, injured and just about everyone else. They've even just passed a law that would give them legal authority to deport Palestinians that have "terrorist relations", and we all know how even babies are considered to be Hamas by the IDF. And I havent even touched on the daily killings of civilians. We have a list of confirmed kills of over 14,000 babies aged less than 1 year old. This, along with the war on Lebanon and the regional attacks, is all done with the full support and funding of the current administration. Biden/Harris being the same as Trump on this topic is not a meme, it's the horrible truth. And all the Arabs that were kicking and screaming about this for the past 13 months were not only ignored, but also actively silenced by the Democrats.

[–] dragontamer@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Hey thanks a lot for coming by!

I appreciate the viewpoint. But I'm curious about what media or social media you use.

Do you use Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, Lemmy, Mastodon, Discord, Telegram or.... Anything else?

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 1 points 1 day ago

No problem at all, thanks for actually acknowledging it.

And I only really use Lemmy. I occasionally browse Imgur, but thats mainly for memes. I don't use any of the big social media sites, I haven't in over 10 years. I haven't touched Reddit in several years at this point either.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat -4 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Found one.

[–] dragontamer@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I appreciate what you are trying to do but I'm not planning on being combative about this.

My mental model is that the majority of people having this viewpoint were caught up in a disinformation campaign tailor made for their viewpoints.

The election is over, it's not helpful to try to fight the viewpoint anymore. But it's more important from a media strategy to TRACK where this came from.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat -2 points 1 day ago

I hear you. There are certain types of argumentation that I see on Lemmy over and over again, and almost always leading towards a conclusion about not voting for Democrats, to the point that I react with a decent amount of hostility to them.

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Found one what?

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat -2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

One other prolific poster said he was American and was aggressive to the point of psychosis about Kamala and Trump being the same on Gaza, then used non-American numbering style, dots instead of commas I think, like $5.000.000 for 5 million, and then pretended not to understand the question when people asked him about it.

The other day there were a couple of people in my comments insisting that anarchists shouldn’t vote in this election, but with weird inconsistencies in whether they were claiming to be American or British. And someone told me that a bunch of users I was arguing with about this topic all suddenly got deleted right after the election.

There were a few more times when their masks slipped off, that’s just what comes to mind right now.

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

I'm not American. I'm Canadian actually. I was just answering OPs question though. I wasn't intending to make any bad faith arguments or mislead anyone so I'm sorry if I did that.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

That's fair, but you weren't answering OP's question.

You acted as if OP had asked if Israel was committing a monstrous crime, or whether Biden and Harris were linked to that. They absolutely are, and you can draw a very direct line from Biden to that, although a lot less so from Harris.

OP's question was how the absolutely insane idea that a good thing to do for the Arabs would be to let Trump get elected came from. You seem like you're echoing that idea, right at the very end, and I invite you to watch things get infinitely worse for all Israel's victims, starting immediately, if you still think that.

You didn't explain anything about how that point of view, which has now come to its ugly conclusion and will result in a quick acceleration of the genocide already in progress, might have spread so widely on social media, when if looked at from first principles it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Mostly you spent a long time saying Israel is killing on an industrial scale and it's wrong. We all think that, I think. You don't need to tell us.

Actually, even that wasn't what OP asked. They asked where each commenter first saw this type of thing on social media, to get some data about how it might have gotten into the public consciousness. But that second-to-last question is a lot more similar to what OP asked than what you said.

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

My comment explained why it wasn't just a meme, but rather a stark and real comparison. It was a direct answer to the question.

The fact of the matter is that Biden has emboldened Israel enough where they are actively performing an extermination campaign in Gaza, invading Lebanon and the West Bank, and escalating to a regional war with Iran. All of this could have been stopped with a single phone call from Biden at any point in the past 13 months. This is why a genocide under the Trump administration is seems as more or less the same thing. Because it's happening as we speak, and Biden is doing nothing to stop or slow them down.

It's not that Arabs voted overwhelmingly in favor of Trump, they just refused to vote for Democrats on principle. Turns out arming a nation that is actively engaged with the genocide of Arabs, silencing them when speaking up, and staunchly defending said country is something that turned Arabs off from voting for the Democrats again.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat -1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

The fact of the matter is that Biden has emboldened Israel enough where they are actively performing an extermination campaign in Gaza, invading Lebanon and the West Bank, and escalating to a regional war with Iran.

True.

All of this could have been stopped with a single phone call from Biden at any point in the past 13 months.

False. He had many phone calls. They didn’t help.

An active genocide in Gaza and the possibility of an escalating regional war was one of the most massive threats to Biden’s reelection prospects. Look what happened.

If he could have ended it with one phone call, just cancelled the whole operation, he would have. Are you trying to tell me that he just loves dead Palestinians and war in the Middle East so much that he wanted the whole thing to happen even though it was absolute kryptonite to his own and his party’s domestic political prospects, in addition to being a historic crime against humanity, just because?

This is why a genocide under the Trump administration is seems as more or less the same thing.

Absolutely false. Wait and see, and observe the difference. Not that it wasn’t already a stain on humanity, but it’s now going to get substantially worse.

My guess is that by the end of Trump’s term, all of Gaza will be annexed to Israel, and all the Palestinians that were there will be exiled or dead. None of this 35,000 numbers anymore, with aid coming in sometimes. And, several other Gaza-like situations will have come up all over the world, with Trump actively pushing them forward instead of just handing over weapons to the one who wants to be doing them.

Because it’s happening as we speak, and Biden is doing nothing to stop or slow them down.

~~False. See above.~~

Edit: You know what? This one is true, I guess. He’s “trying” but not enough to accomplish much of anything. My mental model is that he’s stuck between losing support if he sends weapons, and losing support from the majority of Americans that are pro-Israel, if he doesn’t. But yes, the level of resistance he’s offering isn’t stopping it.

The difference is, Trump will hit the gas, and support Netanyahu no matter how many Arabs he kills, I think. Also he’ll start mistreating Arabs inside the US, and destroy Palestinian aid agencies, as he did during his first term. He really doesn’t like Arabs.

It’s not that Arabs voted overwhelmingly in favor of Trump, they just refused to vote for Democrats on principle.

True.

Turns out arming a nation that is actively engaged with the genocide of Arabs, silencing them when speaking up, and staunchly defending said country is something that turned Arabs off from voting for the Democrats again.

Absolutely true.

I’m not trying to have any kind of hostile interaction with you. I feel bad about doing so and I hear @dragontamer@lemmy.world about just wanting to learn about the situation without needing people to fight in the comments. Just saying how I see it point by point through your narrative. The whole element of it that is presupposing that Biden wanted all of this to happen, or that Trump won’t cause an absolutely insane acceleration of the slaughter operation, is what’s making me mad about it.

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

If he could have ended it with one phone call, just cancelled the whole operation, he would have. Are you trying to tell me that he just loves dead Palestinians and war in the Middle East so much that he wanted the whole thing to happen even though it was absolute kryptonite to his own and his party’s domestic political prospects, in addition to being a historic crime against humanity, just because?

The DoJ is currently sitting on 500 documented cases of war crimes by Israel while using American weapons. They have a legal standing to halt arms shipments on a whim. If there's even a whiff that America would stop arming Israel they would stop. Israel would not be able to exist let alone fight this war without American support. Also, keep in mind that even Ronald Reagan was able to talk down Israel with a single phone call when they tried the same thing in the 80s.

I don't think Biden likes to see dead Palestinian children, but I also don't think it's a coincidence that he has received more money from pro Israel lobbyists than any other Senator in history. No other president in history has emboldened Israel the way Biden has.

Absolutely false. Wait and see, and observe the difference. Not that it wasn’t already a stain on humanity, but it’s now going to get substantially worse.

The domino's have been falling consistently for the past 13 months. The escalations we are going to see over the next few months would have happened regardless if Trump won or lost. It's abundantly clear there's little to no red lines when it comes to Israel's actions, regardless if it's Democrats or Republicans in charge.

I'd also like to point out that Biden campaigned on certain promises for Arabs concerning Palestine that he never fulfilled. Biden has been ignoring the Arab demographic for longer than 13 months.

You're not being hostile IMO so don't worry about appearing that way. If I didn't want to to discuss politics I wouldn't be in this community. I know this

I'm not saying Biden wanted it to happen. I'm saying he let it happen, just as Trump would. When all is said and done a genocide is a genocide, the pace of it matters little. And the conflict is also already boiling over to the rest of the middle east. All while a Democrat is President. Harris would have been better than Trump on virtually every other topic, but for this one there is little to no difference. Both vocalize staunch and unwavering support of Israel. Just one side vocalizes it a bit more politely.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat -1 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

So now we’ve gone from one phone call, to cutting off aid and letting Israel get destroyed. The US can do that, sure. No problem. If Biden did that, no Democrats would win elections for the next 20 years. He’d probably get impeached, with the full support of all those AIPAC Democrats in congress, and then they’d get their aid from his replacement.

I think he had the phone call, said Rafah was a red line, Netanyahu went in anyway, and that’s the choice he faced. Like I say, you’re claiming that he just randomly decided not to do anything when it would have been incredibly easy, for reason that don’t make the slightest bit of sense for Biden even in terms of his own self-interest.

Besides that, Kamala is at least an unknown quantity in it. There’s a middleeasteye article comparing the two somewhere in my history. We don’t know she won’t continue Biden’s policies, but she also wasn’t the one in charge at the time, and we don’t know that she will continue them. With Trump, we know we’re getting a monster.

You fired the babysitter because when her brother was in charge, your kid got bit by a dog. Now, you’re saying it’s no different if a known vicious dog is the babysitter, because what’s the difference. To me that makes no sense.

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 1 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

So now we’ve gone from one phone call, to cutting off aid and letting Israel get destroyed.

The cutting off aid statement was meant to show how easily Biden could have threatened them to make them stop. I even gave the Ronald Reagan example as a historical one. It can happen with a single phone call. It just doesn't.

He’d probably get impeached, with the full support of all those AIPAC Democrats in congress, and then they’d get their aid from his replacement.

2/3rds of Americans support a ceasefire along with 80% of Democrats. It was not an unpopular opinion to say we should make a ceasefire happen. Even before becoming president Biden was staunchly pro-Israel for all, or majority, of his political career. Like I said in my previous comment, he's gotten a lot of money from groups like AIPAC. I don't think the hypothetical threat of impeachment is what was stopping him.

I think he had the phone call, said Rafah was a red line, Netanyahu went in anyway, and that’s the choice he faced.

Thereby letting Netanyahu do whatever he wants. So he's not really holding them back now is he? Where's the difference between him and Trump then? The fact that Trump wouldn't bother calling Netanyahu asking him to please not kill civilians? This distinction matters very little to the innocent lives Israel has claimed.

Besides that, Kamala is at least an unknown quantity in it. There’s a middleeasteye article comparing the two somewhere in my history. We don’t know she won’t continue Biden’s policies, but she also wasn’t the one in charge at the time, and we don’t know that she will continue them. With Trump, we know we’re getting a monster.

Harris has made the some generic statements and empty platitudes that Biden has made and nothing more. Tim Walz himself went on the VP debate and the only real comment on the topic was him saying he supported Israel's right to expand their borders. Couple these along with her doing incredibly stupid things like campaigning with people like Liz Cheney, silencing Democrat-Arabs trying to speak up, refusing to even meet with them other than a few private meetings with some Arab leaders that went nowhere. And it's not a stretch to think she would have been the same. It's pretty clear where she stood on the topic. And this inaction definitely cost her swing states like Michigan and maybe even other states like Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Yet again, you’re conflating “support a ceasefire” with “support letting Israel get destroyed if Netanyahu gives the middle finger to the idea of a ceasefire.” Everyone “supports” a ceasefire, in the abstract.

You’re also vastly overestimating how much most Americans care about the Palestinians, sadly. I’m not trying to defend Biden’s atrocious way he handled this. I’m saying that if he’d done perfectly and threatened Netanyahu like you said, played hardball, then the exact same social media campaign that played the young left like a piano about it for the last 8 months wouldn’t have had a word to say about it, and would have been banging the drum about record oil extraction and how much he betrayed us on the climate, and would have been playing up how badly be betrayed Israel the to centrists, and the person who is not him and didn’t make the decisions would have lost even more badly than she did.

I’m not saying Biden did good, and I’m definitely not saying anyone who thinks Israel’s committing a monstrous horror is wrong. I am saying that America’s enemies foreign and domestic have gotten real good at playing up real issues into their desired electoral outcomes, and their desired electoral outcomes are 10 times more horror. Maybe more.

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 1 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Israel will not get destroyed if Biden tried to enforce a ceasefire. At the end of the day America still has a gun to everyone's head daring anyone to try anything they don't want them to do. There's a reason why America is called the "World Police". The danger to Israel is if America pulls its support from Israel entirely, not stopping a few arms shipments. Israel would still have the arms to fight, they would just not be able to do the mass killings they currently do. The US has covered 70% of the cost of the Israel's current war, just to give you an idea of how much help Israel gets in this conflict. At the end of the day, both Trump and Biden will allow Netanyahu do whatever he wants for the sake of political convenience and foreign lobbying. This is why I say there is no difference between the two, and that it's not just a meme. I know a lot of people will say that Trump will help expedite the process or let it become a regional war. But at the end of the day, a genocide is still a genocide, regardless of the pace. Israel is not being slowed down or stopped in the slightest currently. And the escalations leading up to a regional war have already started. So when people say Trump will be worse a lot of the Arab-Americans just looked at what's happening and said "How?".

The ceasefire was overwhelmingly popular with Democrats. The ones who didn't want one were traditionally Republicans (for the most part) and that's who Harris tried to court. The Republican voters. The end result she got next to no actual Republican votes and disenfranchised a lot of progressives through this decision, and a few others. There have been studies to show that Harris would have actually gained support if she took a firmer stance and said she would enforce a ceasefire.. Was it the singular issue that cost her the election? Probably not. But it definitely hurt her in key swing states.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 1 points 2 hours ago

I think we're both repeating ourselves at this point.

If you want to say anything about what I said about how it translated into social media, which was to me the main point of both OP's question and what I was saying, I'm open to it.

[–] abff08f4813c@j4vcdedmiokf56h3ho4t62mlku.srv.us 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Explains why I see you so often on lemmy.ca !

Btw, here's an example of someone who endorsed orange voldemort because of Gaza: Democratic Hamtramck Mayor Amer Ghalib. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/14/hamtramck-donald-trump-arab-american-muslim

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Majority of Arabs were either voting for Trump, 3rd party, or not voting as a "fuck you" to the Democrats. I know some actually liked Trump but keep in mind that the Arabs were a big reason Biden won Michigan in 2020. A lot of Arabs hate Trump.

[–] abff08f4813c@j4vcdedmiokf56h3ho4t62mlku.srv.us 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yeah, this is the one thing I wasn't sure Harris was doing right. And based on what's coming out now with the numbers on margin of the swing states and how many Arab voters switched, it seems like this might have been the sole issue that cost Harris the White House.

For my part, I thought she should have promised to use executive action to declare a national referendum on the issue once she was elected President, and tell the Jewish bloc that she'd always continue supporting Israel's right to defending itself while telling the Arab voters that she'd use the referendum results to justify putting an end to the war in Gaza by any means necessary and justified and approved in the referendum itself.

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (1 children)

Harris lost all the swing states last I checked. It wasn't the sole issue that cost her the White House but it was definitely the issue that cost her Michigan, and maybe Pennsylvania.

Democrats switched from Biden to Harris last minute because they realized Biden wasn't doing so well on the popularity front. This should have been a major clue to say that Harris should have steered in her own direction. But she didn't and it cost her the election.

[–] abff08f4813c@j4vcdedmiokf56h3ho4t62mlku.srv.us 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Well, based on https://www.arabnews.com/node/2033691/world I can see an argument for them being undercounted in, and thus a tipping point for Wisconsin as well. And if all three are in play then that's the EC.

But yes - if there was any room on any other issue to improve on, those improvements might have helped in getting the lowest Arab/Muslim populated swing states into play and gotten to a surer EC win.

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 1 points 23 hours ago

Well that was an interesting read, thank yoy for sharing. Maybe this opinion is more widespread than I thought.

[–] todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee -1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Israel-adjacent conspiracy theories are quite common. They usually come from the far right, but the far left also participated this time around. The "Biden and Harris explicitly endorse the extermination of 2+ Million Palestinians" narrative is just another one. Like any good conspiracy theory, there are lots of half-truths that help prop it up, but given what was actually at stake in this election it doesn't serve to actually help solve anything. The only actual effect this conspiracy had was to "punish Democrats" for running a bad campaign, which has absolutely jack shit to do with preventing genocide in Palestine, especially since we know that Trump, the only other viable candidate, is demonstrably on Israel's side.

If you want to look anywhere, look at the users on far-left fringe websites that engage in deliberate misinformation campaigns, and the small time politicians and activists like Kshama Sawant that actively campaigned against Harris with the explicit goal of punishing Democrats with a Trump win.

[–] dragontamer@lemmy.world 1 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago)

If you want to look anywhere, look at the users on far-left fringe websites that engage in deliberate misinformation campaigns

It's not the fringe websites I'm concerned about. I'm talking about the big payouts: Twitter, Gamma ebook, TikTok and Instagram.

Fringe websites are where they test ideas and arguments. When they honed the correct message they likely migrate to spreading that the arguments of division to the mainstream sites. Possibly (in the case of Twitter and TikTok) with algorithmic boosts to the arguments.

[–] BonerMan@ani.social -4 points 1 day ago

Oh don't worry the entire shit show was done by Iran and Russia with their terrorists and Israel did very well showing how fast they could take out Iran and damaging their support for Russias Ukraine war in the process as well.

The braindead pro Palestine group Archives exactly two things making people hate actual left politics because these people associate with it and pushing people NOT TO VOTE because Haris would have supported Israel as well.

I think most of the people are either actually paid by terrorists/Russia, are just antisemitic racists, or brain rotten idiots that actually believe what the two other groups tell them. And the Media is just pouring oil into the fire for profits.

[–] dragontamer@lemmy.world -2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Addendum: it was clearly a Kamala strategy to TikTok meme to spread herself. At some point, the Kamala memes stopped and fucked us over.

All TikTok needed to do was change it's algorithm at inappropriate times and bam we are fucked. How many pro Kamala memes did you see in the last week's before the election?

Because I don't remember any coconut trees in the last weeks. The information fountain got shut off and fucked us. We need to know what happened so we are ready for next time.

We are looking at a media deficit so huge that 'Did Joe Biden drop out of the election's was Googles trending search. I want to know why.