252
Ukraine used F-16s to repel Russia's mass missile attack, Zelensky confirms
(kyivindependent.com)
this post was submitted on 27 Aug 2024
252 points (98.5% liked)
World News
38978 readers
2867 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Not quite. The part you're referring to with V2 is ballistic missiles, specifically in their terminal (falling on target) stage. It is very hard and expensive, but not impossible, to counter these. However, only a fraction of what russia is shooting at Ukraine is ballistic missiles. Most are cruise missiles (think mini jet airplanes with wings and jet engines that fly at jet airplane speeds). These can be shot down by other jets or land based missiles pretty easily if there are defenses in place. Lastly is the Shehed drones (think mini civilian propeller plane). These are very slow flying and be shot down by land based guns, other propeller planes with guns, or even helicopters with guns. Russia is also shooting a small handful of hypersonic missiles. These are crazy fast flying from beginning to end of their flight. They're really expensive and russia doesn't have many of these.
I think human operators are more to prevent shooting down non-combatant aircraft like commercial airline and civilian planes neither of which are broadcasting Friend or Foe signals to air defense operators.
Fair enough. I think anything short of a ballistic missile against a "near peer" IS outdated tech at this point, but doing rough napkin math gives about an hour from launch to impact. I still suspect the f-16s were more about anti-drone operations but, reasonable.
That is the on paper reason. I would take a look at how much friendly fire we and our allies have done and... yeah, it is liability and being able to say a human is involved for the purposes of an audit/
Preventing all friendly fire is hard. Militaries aren't just putting on an act.
that's why cruise missiles like the Storm Shadow have stealth technology, because they can be targeted by standard anti-aircraft systems, be the ground or air-based
I am genuinely curious how those shake out against a near peer. Because the big advantages of stealth technology is that you never know where an attack or surveillance craft is coming from.
But when you are up against a foe who has satellites pointed at the nearby carrier group and basically all of your larger bases in the region? They likely do know when they are coming and where they came from. And have a good idea of where they are going.
Because stealth technology is not Predator (well... it kind of IS once this ramble is done but role with me). There is still a tiny amount of signal return and just general "distortion" in the area. It is obviously a LOT more complicated but it is the idea of seeing a cabinet slightly ajar and assuming you must have not closed it correctly rather than grabbing a hatchet and calling 911. Because it is just not feasible to go on full alert the moment you see a slight "weirdness" on the radar.
Unless you know that the USS Jimmy Carter just fired a bunch of missiles in your direction. Missiles that IMMEDIATELY disappeared from your radar outside of a small bit of periodic noise that may or may not be on the way to a power plant.
Its similar to all the questions about whether stealth fighters actually make sense. But the reality of THAT is that fighters themselves don't really make sense and haven't for decades and those are mostly long range missile platforms and interceptors. But... everyone wants to be a fighter pilot because Top Gun.
It's not cutting edge any more, but I wouldn't say everything else is outdated. They have different applications. I presume ballistic missiles are more expensive, too.
I don't think that would be an opinion shared by many. Short range ballistic missiles are exactly that. Short range aka "tactical". One example of an operational US tactical ballistic missiles are ATACMS. These have a maximum range of about 300km. To get anything longer range that is a ballistic missile you go into "strategic" ballistic missiles. The problem with these is we use these for nuclear strikes. If you launch one of these, every country around the world will assume its nuclear armed and could respond in kind. There is no geopolitical concept of "Trust me bro, its just a conventional warhead".
The US loves its cruise missiles. Think about how extensively the Tomahawk cruise missile has been used over the last 2 decades.
Here's the results of the latest missile attack on Ukraine from a couple of days ago:
Of those 236 weapons launched by russia, only 6 were ballistic missiles). 109 were prop driven UAV (drone). That leaves a whole bunch of cruise missiles and 3 hypersonic missiles.
That is where the near peer aspect comes in.
The US LOVES cruise missiles because we, basically since Vietnam, have consistently gone up against groups with significantly lesser technology (often the stuff that even russia doesn't want anymore). It is the same logic behind how nightvision goggles used to provide an insurmountable advantage and are now basically normal kit against a near peer. Or how tanks were amazing for like... World War 1 and a few weeks of World War 2? And these days are ATGM magnets where a comparatively low cost infantry weapon can take out state of the art equipment.
And that is kind of what we have here. russia needed to launch 127 missiles to get 20 though. That is when you start doing the math on whether the significantly lower costs make it "worth it" relative to a short-ish range ballistic missile. Same with any other technology in war.
As for "if it is any bigger people will think it is a nuke". That is nonsense and mostly only applies when two nuclear powers are going up against each other which we already avoid for countless other reasons (yay proxy wars). Unless there is irrefutable evidence that it is an ICBM going a couple hundred kilometers into Ukraine AND Zelensky et al can get on TV in time? "Oh no. Whoever could have seen this coming? Hey putin, this is your last warning".
"near peer" to whom? The USA or Ukraine?
For Ukraine, russia IS near peer.
Who else besides nuclear powers do you know are operating a fleet of strategic ballistic missiles?
Yes? And, as a result, Russia had to fire off 127 missiles to get 20 through. Which raises the question of if this is even a good use of resources/funds/material. Not sure how you missed that when I said it above.
Powers that spend a lot of money buying those from those nuclear powers? So.. basically the same as it has been since the 1950s or so?
Again, you seem to have missed where I addressed this exact point. So I'll just repeat it
But hey, maybe that was confusing. If Russia launches a bunch of non-nuclear ICBMs at the US? We probably already started World War 3 when Russia shot up Alaska or whatever happened during this apocalypse timeline.
If Russia fires a bunch of ICBMs at Ukraine? Common sense is that they aren't nuclear (because of how close they are) but it is in NATO's best interest to "wait and see" in the exact same way we did a wait and see when russia invaded Ukraine the past couple times. We only act if we have no other choice because nuclear powers engaging in direct war is already an endstate.
...and...
Huh. I'm curious how effective this conversation style is with others you interact with, but not curious enough to continue. I think perhaps we have different levels of respect for one another. If anyone else is interested in continue this conversation, feel free to pick up where I'm leaving. Have a nice day.
I respect those who engage in a conversation.
I don't respect people who actively ignore that the person they are "responding" to already addressed the point because you can't get a "gotcha" any other way.
But hey, good talk... not really but.
Ha, that reminds me of what Biden said about the Hypersonic missile technology: "They're almost impossible to defeat."
The one weakness of hypersonic missiles is that it’s very hard to make them manoeuvrable. Where a slower missile or drone could be programmed to take evasive action to make it harder to shoot down, a hypersonic missile only has speed. If you can track it fast enough, you have a pretty good idea of where to aim an interceptor to hit it.
Heh, the forces of changing direction would probably destroy it. Damn physics
What do you mean? Hypersonic are a multitude faster than 1200 km/h.
What? I said nothing about Hypersonic missile velocity - Biden said that a while ago when Putin was sabre rattling with them.
Biden said it's almost impossible. Not is impossible. Basically it means the U.S. has a way to counter it. I mean, hell, the U.S. has had an anti-ballistic missile system for ages, and Hypersonic missile range between mach 5 and 25.
Like the commenter that replied to me said: once it launches, it really can't change course. If you know the launch direction, you know where it's going. An interceptor at that point just needs to get in its way.