• pixxelkick@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    219
    arrow-down
    14
    ·
    1 year ago

    Far too often people forget that Right to Free Speech is not your first right, and it is superseded by other human rights above it.

    Your right to Free Speech only applies as long as it doesn’t interfere with other people’s rights to safety and freedom from prejudice, hate, harm, etc…

    It’s not that complicated and yet countless people always fuck something so straightforward up.

    • iByteABit [he/him]@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      13
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      It begins with free speech, then you skip a few years and suddenly trans kids are scared for their lives. Speech affects people and has consequence, it is not something to take lightly.

    • random65837@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      23
      arrow-down
      124
      ·
      1 year ago

      That’s all fine and dandy until people change the definition of those words to suit their needs. Then all speech they disagree with is hate speech. Which has already happened.

      • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        75
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        That’s all fine and dandy until people change the definition of those words to suit their needs. Then all speech they disagree with is hate speech. Which has already happened

        Let’s get some examples there chief.

        Link what you think is “fine” and has been labeled hate speech

          • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            32
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            But that’s fascists calling reality fake…

            We can’t take any of them seriously. I didn’t think I had to keep pointing that out in 2023.

            I meant a rational person declaring something they don’t like as hate speech.

            Do you understand how crazy it is to say:

            We can’t call anything hate speech, because the people using hate speech all the time call everything they don’t like hate speech

            Fascists have been trying to do that forever, dont start falling for it now all of a sudden.

            • Drewelite@lemmynsfw.com
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              9
              arrow-down
              20
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              But that’s fascists calling reality fake…

              Yuuup. Just like they say about liberals calling for the protection of pronouns: “Genders is gender!”

              So yeah, sorry, but we have to be VERY careful about any kind of “Free speech, except…” because anyone can fill in that blank.

              Don’t act like this is some crazy tactic that no one would fall for. There are kids down the street from me RIGHT NOW learning about how slavery is misunderstood and it gave people lots of valuable skills.

              • orrk@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                ironically, slavery just being misunderstood is due to the “I will defend your right to say ANYTHING crowd”

                • Drewelite@lemmynsfw.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  Under freedom of speech I expect idiotic ideas like this to arise, what’s unacceptable is when that free speech is undermined so teachers can’t deliver the truth. Never undermine freedom of speech. This is where we end up.

                  • orrk@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    but a lot of the teachers are fine with the changes.

                    In your “not undermined free speech”, what stops a teacher from simply teaching that the blacks were lucky and should have been happy to be slaves? or would you enforce a certain “factual viewpoint”, and by your own argument, undermining free speech? after all, it is “their truth”.

                    No, we put limits on free speech all the time for a lot of good reasons, we don’t let people call themselves doctors without the qualification, nor police, we don’t let people sell you paint stripper and call it milk, etc, etc, etc…

          • random65837@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            53
            ·
            1 year ago

            No, they’re stopping woke political teachings of race. Not anything else. The differences in race and our history has always been taught, and will continue to be. Teaching black kids that they’re victims of white people, and white kids that’s they’re racists has NO place in their education. And that HAS been taught to them. Those teachings take innocent children and MAKE them racist against the other race. There’s no other outcome.

              • DarthBueller@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                8
                ·
                1 year ago

                Downvoted solely for use of “cucked”. For fuck’s sake, that word needs to die, not be “reclaimed” or whatever the fuck. It just makes me irrationally angry.

                  • seitanic@lemmy.sdf.org
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    It’s kink-phobic. The reason why they chose that particular kink to fixate on and use to insult people probably says a lot about them, but I won’t speculate on that here.

                  • DarthBueller@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    If they were spewing diarrhea for years, it doesn’t mean that I want to smell it again merely because it’s coming out of the ass of someone on the left.

            • can@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              28
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              Who is telling white kids they’re racist? Honestly.

              Oh do you mean their ancestors? Because that’s kind of a big difference.

              • ZeroCool@feddit.ch
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                6
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Exactly. Nobody is telling white kids they’re racist for existing. That dude just exemplifies the kind of brain rot you get when all your news comes from Breitbart, Fox News, and Facebook memes.

            • TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              27
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              Except black people’s lives have been made worse by white people. Where’s the lie? White kids are not being taught they’re racist. I got a “woke” education and white people were not taught that they’re inherently bigoted. In fact, we were taught that anyone can be a bigot, regardless of who they are, and that any category can be used to cause division and hate.

              I wish you would take your face out of the slop of lies the right wing media feeds you. It makes me sad.

              • orrk@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                Where’s the lie?

                as a white conservative, I think it’s an affront to justice that I can’t call black people N****s and have to “respect their rights”! true freedom is having the right to own people!

            • naught@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              19
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              What school is teaching what you said? Are you familiar with actual CRT and where it is applied? Hint: not in grade schools. Nobody thinks white children should be ashamed of their race and vice versa. Giving students an accurate history and equipping them to understand racial issues is vital. Let’s not confuse ignorance with innocence.

        • underisk@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          16
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          There have been some laws passed by several states to label criticisms of Israel’s apartheid state as hate speech and outlaw BDS boycotts based on that.

          Do not assume the right wing won’t try to turn whatever tactic you find effective against them back at you. That doesn’t mean you should stop using it though; they certainly aren’t going to drop it now that they’ve found a way to wield it.

          • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            19
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            That’s the same as the other example someone gave…

            Fascists calling something hate speech so we stop talking about their fascism.

            Why does this work on so many people?

            What logic are you using that this means we can’t use the term “hate speech” anymore?

            • underisk@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              14
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              I specifically said to continue using it. Right wingers using it for right wing goals doesn’t mean that it’s inherently bad or something. Labeling things hate speech is a useful tool, but don’t trick yourself into thinking your opponent can’t use it.

        • random65837@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          48
          ·
          1 year ago

          Link what you think is “fine” and has been labeled hate speech

          Sure, lets start with having a penis making you a man, and a vagina making you a woman. Referencing indisputable biology has been called both hate and a phobia more times than I can count.

          • Honytawk@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            13
            ·
            1 year ago

            Ah, so when someone transitions from woman to man and have a penis grafted on them, it makes them a man? Good on you to be so progressive.

            • random65837@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              21
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              Its doesnt “make” them a man, they ARE a man. I could care less if people want to switch sides, but pretending you’re no longer what your biology dictates is stupid.

              If theyre a women, go get pregnant and carry a child to term, when I see that, theyre a woman.

              Its not about politics, its not about religion, its about biological fact and commom sense.

              Being “progressive” doesnt include ignorance of reality.

              • MyFairJulia@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                10
                ·
                1 year ago

                Well… Guess a lot women turn out to be men. We didn’t see them carry a child. Perhaps they will carry a child at some point, perhaps they won’t. But until then you can’t trust a single woman to be a woman until they have born a child in front of you.

                You may want to get used to the idea that you’ve been attracted to men all along. I can help you with your coming out.

              • dragonflyteaparty@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                8
                ·
                1 year ago

                Today I learned infertile women are men. Women without children are men. Women who adopted but didn’t get pregnant and carry their children are men. Got it.

                See how it’s not that cut and dry?

              • DarthBueller@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                6
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                There is a difference between biological sex (male/female) and social gender (man/woman). Feel free to make this the hill you die on, if you’d like. My hill is the left fawning over tolerance for Islam without understanding that it’s an exclusivist fundamentalist proselytizing religion that has no sizeable liberal movements. There is no version of Islam that is like the Unitarians, UCC, etc where the holy book is understood to be a product of its times. Sufism is close insofar as their mysticism makes them chill, but they’re not universalists. I have no desire to import proselytizing religionists of any culture or creed, and certainly no tolerance for the same.

              • orrk@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                What the hell planet have you been living on? Its done constantly.

                maybe you should stop watching conservative media, for example ditch Joe Rogan as a start.

                  • orrk@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    what are you talking about, he is platforming and agreeing with everyone from the arch-conservatives all the way to the alt-right retards in the last few months.

          • PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            6
            ·
            1 year ago

            This is a definition dispute, not biological. Mostly anyway. I could have this conversation with a lot of people and it wouldn’t be any sort of hate speech, but it’s pretty obvious what you’re about here.

      • dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        45
        arrow-down
        10
        ·
        1 year ago

        I’m sorry to have to tell you this, but you’ve been had. No one is coming to take your precious heteronormativity and matching pronouns away from you.

          • pinkdrunkenelephants@sopuli.xyz
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            4
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            Dude, you’re gonna have to accept you can’t say hate speech or express hate toward other people based on superficial characteristics at some point. You’re only making it harder on yourself quibbling over semantics.

              • pinkdrunkenelephants@sopuli.xyz
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                If your ability to label someone as a bigot relies on your own poor understanding of language, then you aren’t fighting hate speech, you’re just a manipulative asshole.

                That’s what you ought to be telling the bigots, but here you are defending them.

        • Iceblade@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          Not OP but in my country there have been pushes to label criticism of Islam as hate speech against muslims. Partucularly troublesome given how Islamic views of women and LGBT individuals have become more prevalent.

      • KaiReeve@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        23
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        So what you’re saying is that it’s important to instill strong morals and encourage critical thinking in the general populous so that we can recognize the difference between actual hate speech and what is being spun as hate speech in order to further the agendas of those who would oppress us and therefore any action made to suppress public education must be the precursor to a larger scheme to gain control by manipulating the ignorant?

      • pixxelkick@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        10
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 year ago

        Thats not how Hate Speech works, its explicitly about intent and not the actual words used, at least in Canada.

        Canada doesn’t specify any specific words that are “banned” or whatever, and the law is explicitly setup to handle that no matter what you do or dont say, all it cares is about the intent behind your words and whether they intended to incite violence/hate.