Logline

A shuttle accident leads to Spock’s Vulcan DNA being removed by aliens, making him fully human and completely unprepared to face T’Pring’s family during an important ceremonial dinner.

Written by Kathryn Lyn & Henry Alonso Myers

Directed by Jordan Canning

  • deweydecibel@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    By far the best moment was Pike’s face when he noped out of the scene after Spock revealed the deception.

    • Leer10@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      His 90° turn sent me squealing I had to rewatch it. I love how Pike is supportive and a better model of masculinity.

  • Mezentine@startrek.website
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    1 year ago

    They’re also doing a really good job of playing out the long arc of T’Pring and Spock having genuine affection for each other to the point where we’re actually kind of going to be on T’Pring’s side when she finally reaches the conclusion of “Man, fuck that guy”

  • felixxx999@startrek.website
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    1 year ago

    A few thoughts on the rewatch:

    Chapel having to explain her feelings for Spock to the alien was kind of a teenage show thing. BUT the more I think about it the more I realize that TOS had aliens with simple, sometimes pure, goals. So I think these aliens fit right in with ST.

    The “ancient alien” line may not age well. They are usually very careful not to put references to our time due to it not dating well (Musk, Stacey Abrams). I’ve heard it mentioned on Shuttle Pod show that the actors could not change a word of dialoge to protect the show from sounding of our time. Of course the joke of using that phrase will fade so maybe it’s OK.

    What was that bit about Pike’s girlfriend looking for Dilithium? Was it a joke that went over my head? Could someone explain?

    • Value Subtracted@startrek.websiteOPM
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      1 year ago

      What was that bit about Pike’s girlfriend looking for Dilithium?

      Pelia, the new engineer, is out looking for dilithium - not Batel.

      It was previously established that Pelia and Amanda are friends.

    • LowVisNitpicker@startrek.website
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      1 year ago

      I agree about reference to our time, but the Lorca’s Musk line works because he’s from the mirror universe. I’m not sure that’s what the writers intended, but I’ll take it.

    • marian@discuss.tchncs.de
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      1 year ago

      The “ancient alien” line may not age well. They are usually very careful not to put references to our time due to it not dating well

      What do you mean? which line, what reference?

    • StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website
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      1 year ago

      I’ve seen a great amount of curmudgeonly criticism of this episode in other places.

      Can’t understand it really. There really seems to be a contingent of fans that just don’t want to have fun.

      • deweydecibel@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        That’s exactly what it is. They have an extremely narrow and boring definition of what Star Trek is “supposed” to be, and revolt against anything that steps outside that, be it comedy, action, whatever.

        • StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website
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          1 year ago

          Some of the criticisms fall in another category of beating on SNW’s alleged canon ‘violations’.

          These include assertions that Chapel ‘isn’t the same person’ as she doesn’t have the same temperament/personality as in TOS, Uhura not having met or known of T’Pring before Amok Time, etc., Spock would have been ashamed to have eaten animal products (bacon), T’Pring’s ears have the wrong shape

          While I can be quite critical of incoherence in plot threads or characters within a single show, especially in a single season (say in Discovery season two or every season of Picard), to me that’s a problem in how a set of writers are telling a specific story.

          I’ve come to realize that the fans who just can’t get past continuity changes they can’t resolve immediately across the entire history of the franchise just aren’t going to enjoy SNW as much as I am.

          I classify these inflexibilities as:

          — not being open to the possibility that the characters may grow and change,

          — not being open to the possibility of characters being unreliable narrators or saying things ironically in later shows (e.g., in TOS Uhura might tweak Spock about T’Pring to press him to identify who she is, even if she personally knew exactly who she was),

          — refusing to accept that minor changes in timing, visual design, technology and characters are possible due to intertemporal interference as long as the Prime continuity maintains key/essential events.

          In the end, hanging out here to have conversations with folks who are a bit more flexible is a better choice for me.

          • Acid@startrek.website
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            1 year ago

            There’s also another side to it which is that there’s a very big difference in what TOS fans and TNG era fans would consider proper Star Trek.

            I’ve always held the belief that SNW is very much a spiritual successor or prequel to TOS, and while TNG was a sequel in some ways to TOS it was a very different tone and style and it’s some what jarring for people who never really got into TOS to accept as Star Trek.

            People think that witty banter and quips were something new to SNW but TOS was full of them the entire relationship of the Trio was built on them, or the goofy scenes where someone would do something silly like Scotty getting drunk with comedic music etc.

            This combined with as you mentioned above some slight alterations to canon drives people up the wall and it’s just silly. Enjoy the show for what it is or just don’t watch it.

          • skfsh@startrek.website
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            1 year ago

            Identifying potentially unreliable narrators is such an underrated strategy! So a character says “The Federation has never encountered this race/phenomenon before.” Off to Memory Alpha to state this as fact! But of course, people state beliefs as facts, incorrectly, all the time in real life!

            • StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website
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              1 year ago

              I find the implicit assumption that everything onscreen is ‘fact’ exasperating.

              More episodes than not depend on guest or recurring characters providing inaccurate, incomplete or outright deceptive information. In many cases, the plot hangs on whether the hero crew can deduce or find more evidence about what’s actually going on.

              To assume that everything not directly contradicted in an episode is true is boggling.

              • Shdwdrgn@mander.xyz
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                1 year ago

                I think the problem with that is a TV show has a limited amount of time to set up a problem and then solve it. The truly great writers can get around this by spreading information out over multiple episodes through a season, and it gives them more time to deal with incorrect information, allowing the characters to recognize that some information is actually false and then adjust course. In fact it can make for a great plot twist to build on bad information through a season and then reveal everything we’ve been told is in fact wrong!

                However when your plot is limited to a single hour, you simply don’t have the time to find out something is wrong, the characters just have to charge forward with what they know, assume everything is factual, and execute a plan to fix the problem. And in many episodes the build-up barely leaves any time for getting things resolved.

                It would be nice to see more huge multi-episode plot arcs though. I’ve seen it happen in some seasons of Doctor Who and it’s just incredible when they pull it off smoothly because you get little hints along the way about something but no real context about what it means until it all gets put together at the end of the season. Would love to see more of that in Star Trek. I think Discovery used that in the first couple seasons but then lost it, and nothing else really stands out for me in previous shows.

                • Hogger85b@kbin.social
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                  1 year ago

                  I am not sure I agree with your series Vs episodic approach truly great writers can tell a story in a an hour or a short story. I mean House MD became formulaic but it’s first few series the fotmula of two misses and hit (you could check the angle of the minute hand to see where you were) did work and made highly popular single hour whodunnit.

                • StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website
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                  1 year ago

                  We do have even so numerous examples of self-serving perspectives and irreconcilable reports across the episodic shows.

                  Take Lwaxana Troi’s belief that Picard is attracted to her, which Picard denies vehemently. Lwaxana is a formidable telepath. We are given to believe that her perception is some kind of middle age woman’s foible, and Picard is to be believed because he’s the hero. Do we ever see the factual truth confirmed? No.

                  So, I am more than willing to let main characters be wrong in their recollections or perceptions even if it’s not absolutely confirmed in the shows.

                • dethstrobe@startrek.website
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                  1 year ago

                  ENT actually did this, which is odd to think how pioneering that series was at the time.

                  But there were several plot lines that built up over the series and some which didn’t even have pay off until the last season just before the series was canned.

      • Tired8281@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        I feel like I’ve heard more people complaining about people complaining about this episode than I actually heard complaining about this episode. Feels sort of preemptive.

        • StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website
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          1 year ago

          You’re fortunate to have missed the complaints elsewhere then. It really seems to be an episode that has very strong reactions, but isn’t outright controversial.

          The reaction here seems overwhelmingly positive. Even the fans on old Trek BBS is mostly giving the episode high marks.

          But the review by Trek tie-in author Keith Di Candido at Tor is quite critical, and that group of commentators seem largely to have followed.

          The old sub has more than the usual quotient of nitpicks, but also enthusiasts.

          Trek Movie is one of the few that takes the middle ground saying the episode ‘misses its mark’.

          • Tired8281@lemmy.ca
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            1 year ago

            I laughed my ass off, and it was still Star Trek to the core. What’s not to like? They are killing it this season.

  • adamlauver@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I thought this episode walked a really fascinating line in its approach to exploring the lived experience and cultural significance of mixed identities. Having the ancient alien species misinterpret Spock’s Vulcan DNA as an anomaly/pathology was a risky move from a writing perspective given the potential for reproducing language and ideas associated with eugenics. But doing so allowed what what I thought was a more robust examination of Spock’s character and his relationships, by way of separating one half of his identity from the other and seeing what happens (like a smaller scale of Community’s excellent “Remedial Chaos Theory,” which examined how the study group might be affected by the temporary removal of each group member in turn).

    There was plenty to laugh at, of course. Ethan Peck could easily have gone too over-the-top in playing Spock’s surge in human emotions, but I think he threaded the needle really well in allowing through just enough Vulcan “muscle memory” (as it were) to tamp down the humania – and he still managed to be extremely funny. And Anson Mount as always shined with his subtle (and hilarious) comic timing as the host of the engagement ceremony. Watch the way he snaps his fingers when T’Pring’s father asks for more Tevmel --and how he continues on in wide-eyed stride on his way back to the group once Spock starts admitting to his “condition.” Mount is a performer who knows how to blend into the scenery rather than chew it – a distinct quality in a Star Trek captain and a consistently funny one to boot.

    But what really made this episode work for me was the heart in addition to the humor. I have a friend who remarked earlier this season that she doesn’t understand why Star Trek is so obsessed with Spock’s human side; she’s much more attracted to his Vulcan side and is confused at what she sees as the constant efforts to make him “more human.” I can see her frustration, and this episode certainly turns into that skid a bit. But the show isn’t fantasizing or daydreaming about a Spock that’s fully human – it’s using the idea as a tool to understand his fuller and more complex identity, and to celebrate what makes Spock Spock. And I absolutely shed tears when Spock came clean to T’Pring’s parents about his condition, not just out of personal pride but as a way to express affection and appreciation for his human mother. What a wonderful moment.

    And I think this episode’s true strength was in depicting how everyone in Spock’s life understood that being made “more human” didn’t make him better or more “fun” or more “relatable.” Not once did anyone murmur to anyone else something like, “Are we sure we want to fix him?” (which I could easily see Dr. McCoy saying, for example). Instead, everyone understood fundamentally the unique value of Spock’s half-human/half-Vulcan identity, and went to great lengths to bring it back. It might have been a bit corny to funnel that through Nurse Chapel’s romantic feelings for him, and having her have to admit those feelings to an ancient alien species – but it was smart, too. (And seeing her tell the Vulcan Science Academy that she didn’t think their fellowship was ready for her made me literally pump my arm, by the way).

    Another solid Spock-centric episode in my book. I look forward to reading what everyone else thought!

    • SoSquidTaste@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      humania

      My first time seeing this; delightful term hahah

      I also can’t agree enough with your observation about the human side as a lens through which to understand Spock and how he relates to those around him. Double points for noting the lack of quippiness in the vein of “Are we sure we want to fix him?” I hate that I need to praise that kind of restraint in TV / movie writing these days but, well, here we are.

      As for my original contribution here:

      I realllly liked the fact that while I’m sure I’m not alone in shipping TF out of Spock and Chapel, I feel like this episode went to decently robust character exploration such that the ending bit felt a lot less tacked on, or a writer’s wink “for the shippers”. A lot of that IMO rests on Spock’s monologue at the end of the dinner. For just another layer of appreciation of that character moment.

  • khaosworks@startrek.website
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    1 year ago

    Aha! I just noticed that the lead writer on this episode is Kathryn Lyn, who also wrote the best episode of Lower Decks to date: the incredible “wej Duj”.

    No wonder I thought that Ortegas’ line about “Notice how I move my eyebrow but no other muscles in my face,” sounded like something Mariner would say.

    • triktrek@startrek.website
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      1 year ago

      Nice catch. Also, T’Lyn was introduced in “wej Duj” and was named of writer Kathryn Lyn. Seems like Lyn has a knack for Vulcans. According to Memory Alpha, she’s a big Star Trek fan and cosplayed at conventions.

  • YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I keep watching this series and saying, see this is what we want. This was a fun episode that hit all it’s marks, science and technology, social issues, and an awesome story.

  • Mezentine@startrek.website
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    1 year ago

    ​I absolutely love the Kerkhovians holy shit. They feel like they’ve fallen out of a slightly different genre of Sci Fi than Star Trek normally goes for, like something from a Revelation Space or a Culture novel.

  • UhBell@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I had so much fun watching this episode. Spock yelling at his mom in a beanie like a teenager fucking killed me. This episode was filled with so much potential meme material - I can’t wait to rewatch it to collect screenshots.

  • astroturds@startrek.website
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    1 year ago

    I needed the laughs this week and it totally delivered for me.

    Star trek always does this to me, they introduce some character or change to a character that I initially would not agree with but they always make me love them. I’m going to miss human Spock now.

    When they said they were bringing the Kirk’s into strange new worlds I thought it was a terrible idea, now I keep thinking how great a series with the new Kirk would be.

    When seven turned up in voyager I knew it was because of sex appeal and the FHM magazine culture of the time so I was against it, now she’s my favourite character and I cried when she was made captain.

    Whe Pike and Spock turned up in discovery I thought that was a bad idea, now pike is my hero and I never want SNW to end and Ethan Peck is totally smashing it as Spock.

    Human Spock? What a shit idea. But, I absolutely loved it.

  • felixxx999@startrek.website
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    1 year ago

    I loved the episode. Someone needs to make a Spock kicking the air GIF. I love that Spock has two hotties fighting for his attention. This was close to a hangout Trek. AND they were on a mission too! This episode felt so much like TNG. Again, Pike’s hair is amazing. THE BEST PART: When Pike tried to escape the reunion of Spock and his future mother in law the damned door wouldn’t open. Pike avoiding family conflict was the best running joke on the show. And LOVED that Pike wasn’t the hero. Show is so good.

  • Madison_rogue@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    After some further thought, I have to make the observation that I think T’pring knew something was wrong with Spock. There are a few things that T’pring does that indicates she knows that whatever Spock is going through, it’s more than he lets on. The main indication, to me, is when she held his hand after pouring the tea, which has to be excruciating to Spock. She helps him while he’s pouring the water to ensure the tea is properly steeped. She initiates the end of the Ritual of Awakening; interrupting her mother because the timer has expired. She defends the memory Amanda and Spock share. I love T’pring because, regardless of the circumstance, she stands beside Spock and defends him in the best way possible.

    Unfortunately, by the time she realizes something is amiss, they are committed to the ritual and they cannot get out of it even if she would want to delay it. I still think that Spock, at the time, chose to not disclose his condition for good reasons. I’m still on the fence that T’pring would’ve accidentally revealed that during the mind meld with her mother. I’m still onboard that Spock made the correct decision, however I can say that he should of at least disclosed that something was amiss a little later on.

    • SamHandwich@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      1 year ago

      I agree with you. T’pring really shows a lot of care & compassion here, and I think it makes her decision at the end of the episode make more sense. We obviously know how this relationship works out in the end, but it really has me interested in how/if Chapel affects the outcome in further SNW episodes. (I’m choosing to believe T’pring hadn’t already scoped out Stonn as a partner by this episode because that seems too cruel for her, but I guess we’ll see.)

      • Madison_rogue@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        I mentioned in another post that I think T’pring, despite asking for time apart, eventually realizes that Spock omitting his current condition was entirely justifiable. I think she’s hurt, but she then understands Spock’s point of view (as logic would dictate) that omitting disclosure was the best path forward with the highest probability of success.

        • Steve Sparrow@lemmy.one
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          1 year ago

          It’s such a tragic moment because both their responses were reasonable.

          T’Pring is about to be Spock’s wife, and it’s not simply a business union–she’s very much in love with him. She’s eager to be his partner and keeping changes in his life from her compromises that partnership.

          The thing about Spock is that up to the end of the episode he’s still wrestling with the isolation that being bi-racial has come with–he’s aware that T’Pring should be let in but emotionally he’s never come around to that, having grown up at odds with other Vulcans.

          What saddens me is that if Spock had communicated how his status affects his approach to full-blooded Vulcans (indeed if had even known to communicate it), I have no doubt T’Pring would have been much more forgiving… alas we sometimes figure out ourselves too late.

      • const void*@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Spock could have handled the situation better. He really should have shared he was unwell and trying to suffer thru it. Great episode.