this post was submitted on 11 Apr 2024
671 points (91.2% liked)
Lemmy Shitpost
26703 readers
2698 users here now
Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.
Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!
Rules:
1. Be Respectful
Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion.
Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here.
...
2. No Illegal Content
Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required.
That means:
-No promoting violence/threats against any individuals
-No CSA content or Revenge Porn
-No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing)
...
3. No Spam
Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules.
-If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community.
-Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community.
-No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers
-No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community.
...
4. No Porn/Explicit
Content
-Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content.
-Do not post Gore or Shock Content.
...
5. No Enciting Harassment,
Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts
-Do not Brigade other Communities
-No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy.
-No Witch Hunts against users/communities.
-No content that harasses members within or outside of the community.
...
6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.
-Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.
-Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.
...
If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.
Also check out:
Partnered Communities:
1.Memes
10.LinuxMemes (Linux themed memes)
Reach out to
All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules. Striker
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I have an account on lemmygrad and when I created it, I was asked about my politics. They formally accepted every left ideology but when you say anything remotely anti-authoritarian, you get downvoted into oblivion
Mind boggling. Like seriously, I am as left wing as they come and for me that is defined by anti-authoritarian views. Fascists aren't bad because they are the wrong kind of fascist.
to be fair, tankies are the fascist skinwalkers wearing the visage of the lefties they killed
Oh shit. I now I dont know if I like this, or "Leftist version of a Nazi Brony" more
Almost literally, if you know jack shit about the Russian revolution.
I've recently come to the conclusion that they are the leftist version of Nazi Bronies, like, dude, you're one of the first populations that your preferred rulers are going to purge.
Nah. People like that end up being pushed into paramilitary shit or the bureaucracy.
I totally agree with you. That said, tankies will argue some shit why they are further left. You can go into that discussion about the semantics of left and distract from the fact that tankies are evil. Or stop "gatekeeping" leftness and argue why they are bad.
Not doubting you, but what do you mean by "anti-authouritarian?" Presumably you've read Engels' On Authority so you know what they are operating under the pretense of, I can see anti-Marxist takes getting removed or downvoted. It is Lemmygrad after all, not Lemmy EZLN or Lemmy Catalonia.
I didn't mean to disagree with you. Just add that they are formally open to other leftist viewpoints but not effectively.
And yes, you will get alot of strawmans like Engels' On Authority. If you want an analysis of the text, this video debunks it quite well
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
this video debunks it quite well
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Are you an anti-Engels Marxist? I'm sorry, I think I actually agree with downvoting you, lol. That's silly.
No, I'm not a Marxist. I agree with him in some points and agree with some libertarian Marxists but at the end, they say alot of stuff Bakunin, Kropotkin, Goldman, ... said long before
So... why are you surprised that you get downvoted for being an Anarchist in a Marxist-Leninist space?
I'm not surprised. If anything, I was surprised to be accepted into it at the first place. Sometimes I'm surprised by the low level of education some people have. You mentioned Catalonia. Some people don't seem to know nor want to know anything about the Spanish civil war or the anything. I sometimes try to argue with people from different ideologies because I think it's an opportunity for all to grow and sharpen their position but I'm not surprised to be downvoted. In no comment of this thread did I express surprise
no, the Catalonians betrayed the revolution, so they were working together with the francoists, because we need a big daddy strongman in charge!
Not sure if joking or stupid. I tend to the former but being on the internet long enough, I can't rule out the latter
i would hope the mockery of the needs for a strongman to lead the "revolution" would give it away
Ok, that gave you away. I mean, the bolsheviks didn't even want a revolution but allied with the republicans to build a liberal bourgeois democracy
sure, meanwhile, if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you
I don't even understand what that means. And some educated tankies will explain away why Stalin was right and Spain wasn't ready for a revolution. But some people don't know stuff.
it means that if you really believe that, you are gullible.
and I know "educated" tankies have put a lot of effort into some ham fisted explanations for why this and that bust have been the case, but, straight factually, with all the evidence we have, it shows that the USSR was a fascistic imperialist dictatorship using the aesthetic of communism, nowhere that the USSR intervened was spared from it trying to control the region.
infact that's the entire reason we disparage them as tankies, because they support the use of tanks and military might to subjugate vassals and destroy any political group not preview to their control, political groups like workers not wanting to be controlled by some shareholder class (what, you think the Russian oligarchy came from nowhere over the last 30 years?) with little vested interest in the actual running of the workplace
That sounds like a big misunderstanding. I said that the bolsheviks were against the revolution in Spain and I thought you were the tankie disagreeing with me. What is your standpoint and what do you think mine is?
so, first off, my standpoint is that the Bolshevik were against both of the revolutions because they wanted to quasi annex the Iberian Peninsula as another soviet client state.
you, as far as i have understood, believe that the USSR supplied the spanish goverment under some noble "just help" goal instead of the backdoor annexation that the USSR has become famed for
Ok, I guess my reading comprehension sucks at the moment, sorry. It's not my native language and I have other stuff occupying my mind right now.
I still don't understand what you mean by "both of the revolutions" but my view is that there was an anarchist revolution going on and the Soviets were against it because it would undermine their legitimacy as only path toward liberation (which they were not, neither the only nor any path to liberation)
I thought they supported the republicans but I might be wrong. That would be even worse. I still don't think it would have been realistic to annex the iberian peninsula. From all I know, they said that it's not time for any revolution, not that a bolshevik revolution would work.
the soviet did support the republicans, as far as the republicans were the "original" Spanish government, they imposed a lot of stipulations to their aid tho, stipulations that would allow soviet influence and later annexation of the region as most of its military being soviet supplied and having a large contingent of soviet "volunteers"
TIL. Thanks
Still: what do you mean "both of the revolutions"? Anarchist and bourgeois?
Spain had 2 revolutions, the first fascist, the second anarchist, why do you think it had a bourgeois revolution? that requires some next level not knowing anything about Spain beforehand...
I didn't think of the fascists as revolutionary so I was confused and asked. After you didn't answer me the first time, I asked again. If that would have made sense to me, I wouldn't have asked. Thanks anyway for using this opportunity to insult me.
You make claims about what happened during the Spanish Civil War, yet are upset when called out for not knowing who even participated? after having made claims as to the motives of a good deal of the people, somehow involved?
Also, since I didn't actually insult you, but do want to live up to your expectations: "are you an idiot or do you just repeat everything you heard a tankie say without thinking"?
Had me in the first sentence, ngl
So then it seems like an accepting place for people to learn about Marxism-Leninism, but is primarily a space for Marxism-Leninism.
Lenin had some disagreements with Marx, i dont even like marx ans lenin is worse, and 'marxist lenninist' means 'stalinist'. Which is even worse. You cannot call them 'leftists'.
What is a leftist, if not someone advocating collective owmership of Capital? Leftist isn't a syononym for "good," of course, but I fail to see how Marxist-Leninists aren't leftists.
In the USSR the serfs were still serfs even if they weren't called that, the workers still didn't own the means of production, and there was still a tiny room of delusional shit sticks making all the decisions, often wildly irrationally.
Better than one guy doing it, but no more, or not much more communist than the UK or France.
The USSR was a Worker State, owned and run by the workers. Soviet Democracy was the base model of decision making, along the formation of Democratic Centralism.
There were numerous struggles and issues with the USSR, of course. There was corruption, especially among the Politburo. The focus on heavy industry over light industry, though favorable during WWII, resulted in fewer luxury commodities, which resulted in liberalization and collapse.
Fundamentally, it is entirely silly to say that the USSR wasn't leftist. It absolutely was, even if it was highly flawed and imperfect. In fact, it's useful to analyze what went right (free eduaction, high home ownership, generous social safety net) and what went wrong (corruption, lack of luxury commodities, etc.) so as to come up with a better system.
That is, unless you think Marxism isn't leftist, and think only Anarchism counts as leftist, in which case I really don't know what to tell you.
The Bolsheviks killed all the communists. Including the Marxists.
That's certainly a statement, backed up by nothing but posturing and not an ounce of analysis.
If you can meaningfully explain how Lenin and the Bolsheviks were not Marxists, I'd be very surprised, but I am willing to hear your case. What do you believe would have been the Marxist structure? The same as the USSR, just without the corruption? Is it just vibes and aesthetics?
Marxist? Maybe. But they skirted around the edges and avoided any unpleasant communism.
As shown by the fact they basically dismantled all the soviets and turned them into some parliamentary shit?
The justification for replacing the factory committees with the union system is because the factory committees were focusing competitively on local issues, rather than cooperatively at a national level. I don't believe this makes it less leftist. This improved productivity in a time when the factories were more chaotic.
How would you propose the Bolsheviks could have handled the situation in a more thoroughly Communist manner, given what they had to work with at the time?
Dude I'm not going to keep arguing with someone who tries to defend that shit.
I am not defending it, I am asking what you would have done. I gave their justification for going with a different Socialist system, and you haven't explained what you would have done, which is all I am asking for.
Marx was, and I couldn't stand reading that bastard because of how he talked about the 'lumpenproletariat', that shit made my blood boil, so maybe I'm missing something, pretty vague on specific structures of post revolutionary organization. More about what communism was and how to get it.
And its very cute to say the state is the workers, but when they have to switch to building impractical useless products to keep up with the irrational demands of the state, or be punished I think its pretty clearly unmasked as a lie, and blatantly insane to still claim.
I'm not claiming any one group or ideology owns the Russian revolution-it was a big tent, it was a big fight, and it took place over, at any given moment, at least half the day. Which is wild. I'm saying the Bolsheviks were reactionaries. They knew they were reactionaries. And they killed the communists.
What made you upset about the Lumpenproletariat? Either way, Marx describes a bit about what a Socialist state might look like in Critique of the Gotha Programme, but is careful not to actually decide anything or give a template.
I understand that you are saying the Bolsheviks were reactionaries. The Bolsheviks claimed the Anarchists were counter-revolutionaries. What evidence do you have that the Bolsheviks were against implementing Socialism and eventually Communism?
Reactionary is specifically used for enemies of the revolution, not the ones carrying it out.
I am not defending the killing of the Anarchists, but questioning the language of "reactionary" as used by you.
There is the fascist
In what manner at all? Fascism is fucking horrible. I am recommending about Marx and Engels as examples of Leftists. Unless, of course, you think Communism is fascist, in which case I really don't know what to tell you.