this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2024
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77
Bernie Would Have Won (www.dropsitenews.com)
submitted 1 day ago by hedge@beehaw.org to c/politics@beehaw.org
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[–] roy_mustang76@lemmy.dbzer0.com 23 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Bernie would not have won in 2024. In hindsight, it seems clear that winning in 2020 was at best a booby trap. If Trump had won re-election, the Republicans would be grappling with inflation anger (since absolutely none of his policy preferences would have slowed it, if anything they would have accelerated inflation)

Now, as usual, the Republican is going to get credit for the hard choices the Democrat had to make in office and the vibes that "Republicans are better for the economy" will continue, unless his tariffs fuck everything up so quickly that even the oblivious can't ignore it.

[–] realitista@lemm.ee 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Nobody ever polled better against Trump than Sanders.

[–] roy_mustang76@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 1 day ago

Bernie also never faced Trump in an actual head-to-head matchup, so we'll never really know, will we?

I think Bernie stood the best chance at beating Trump in 2016, with the benefit of hindsight. I also think he could have beat Trump in 2020 (though, 2020 was a booby trap because there was no getting through COVID without some kind of economic downside). I don't think Bernie's message overcomes the simplistic logic at play in the electorate - "things didn't seem as expensive 4 years ago".

[–] Banzai51@midwest.social 13 points 1 day ago

Pure delusion.

[–] TikoBrown@beehaw.org 27 points 1 day ago

I love Bernie, he is one of my favorite politicians but thinking he would have won is fantasy just like Kamala was. Do you know why Obama won twice? because he has charisma, the "it" factor like a superstar. Something some people are born with, it's like they vibrate with an energy that many people gravitate towards.

Sadly and I hate to admit it, but Rump has "it", I know it's a shitty evil version but even some good people were blinded by it (although this has shown me there are a lot more stupid/evil people in this country than I imagined)

Politics is mostly a popularity contest sadly instead of policy, they should really call it Poplitics. I believe there is one among us who will rise up sometime in the next four years with this gift to continue the never ending universal fight of good versus evil if we don't all die in a Nuclear Armageddon or civil war by then.

p.s. The DNC needs to burn to the ground and the ashes need to be vaporized.

[–] hedge@beehaw.org 25 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I don't know for certain if he would have won, but I'm guessing that he would've done a whole heckuva lot better than Kamala.

[–] DdCno1@beehaw.org 23 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (5 children)

I doubt that. He wasn't even able to convince Democrats beyond young, white colleges educated men - who are outraged by the mere thought that his appeal starts and ends with them (edit: called it), who dive head first into conspiracy theories that have one thing in common: They all ignore this simple fact.

Look, he's among a small handful of truly incorruptible American politicians and he deserves respect for this, but he has never been presidential material and never will be.

[–] niucllos@lemm.ee 6 points 1 day ago

As a youngish, college educated white man who voted against Bernie in 2016, his appeal certainly extended beyond that demographic, all my queer POC friends loved him. He polls horribly with the stable, comfortable middle class Democrats who reliably vote for sure, and I doubt he can/could ever make it through a Dem primary, even if the DNC leadership pushed him. But he does do really well with the same groups trump does, the disaffected and marginalized. In an election matchup, Trump wins the extremely bigoted voters, and Bernie wins the leftists and targeted minority groups and drives much higher turnout in them. The moderate Republicans who swung to Biden and Kamala probably vote third party or abstain, the establishment Dems probably hold their nose and vote Bernie. I think it would be very close, and if there were third party centrist candidates they would get more votes than expected, but I think turnout general would be a lot higher than 2016 or 2024

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 29 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Bernie would have won the fuck out of 2016.

Hillary almost won, and she had essentially nothing to bring beyond being blue, a lady, and continuing the status quo. On top of that she is too fake for politics, which is a high level of fakeness. Bernie would have been an upgrade to everyone who doesn’t work in DC.

How he would have done as president, I have no idea. But he absolutely would have won.

[–] DdCno1@beehaw.org 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

nothing to bring beyond being blue, a lady, and continuing the status quo

She was one of the most experienced and qualified candidates for US presidency in history. The kind of political illiteracy you're proudly displaying is a fundamental issue that many democracies have to tackle, not just the US.

Edit:

Some numbers from 2016 support my earlier claims:

https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/15592-age-and-race-democratic-primary

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

What were her big accomplishments in the senate again?

Here's Bernie:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders#Legislation_2

I'm not against her because she is blue, or a lady. Those are both good things. I'm against her because she was the last wave of the Clinton-era conservatism that poisoned the Democrats and lost them supporters which led in large part to our current catastrophe. For more, see the source article.

[–] DdCno1@beehaw.org 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

What were her big accomplishments in the senate again?

She was experienced in the executive branch instead of the legislative branch of the government, which matters in this context, because she was a candidate for the highest office in the executive:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton%27s_tenure_as_Secretary_of_State

Here’s Bernie:

A bit misleading, given that Sanders has been in office for much longer. He's old, almost five years older than Trump, by the way.

Clinton-era conservatism

She's a moderate, always has been, which in the increasingly polarized political landscape is so outrageous to some people on both sides of the aisle that they feel the need to smear her by accusing her of being the other side's extreme. Please don't do this. It doesn't exactly make you look level-headed. Her voting record is in stark contrast to her husband and more liberal than Obama's, which doesn't exactly support your claims either.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think a lot of it hinges on what a “moderate” is, in the American political frame of reference, and whether one of those is good enough for most of the American people who don’t live in Washington or NYC to ever have a chance of living a decent life.

You’ve got a point, I guess, about some of it. But I still mostly stick by my statement that Hillary fucked it, when Bernie would have crushed it, on economic policy and sanity in our Israel policy among several other key issues where the majority of people feel very differently than the people in DC and on the news do.

[–] DdCno1@beehaw.org 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

As long as a majority of Americans see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires, Sanders' economic policies have less mass appeal and offer more opportunities for attack ads than you think. It needs to be stressed that people voted for Trump not just because he's a loud-mouthed racist and sexist and they like that, but also because he inherited the (irrational) image of Republicans being better for the economy.

Public opinion on Israel was, even among college kids, very different in 2016, before the current wave of massed anti-Israel propaganda from Russian, Chinese and Iranian bot farms sweeping over social media - and even now most voters (as in: people who actually vote) are still more pro-Israel than pro-Palestine (which makes sense, given how important of a partner Israel is to the US) - and it's still not high on the list of priorities for most, not even remotely high enough to be mentioned side-by-side with economic policy, which is and almost always has been the number one priority.

where the majority of people feel very differently than the people in DC and on the news do

Are you saying that the polls are completely wrong? What are you basing the idea on that the "majority of the people" (reminder: the majority of voters just elected Trump - he actually got the popular vote this time, which is deeply, deeply troubling) have left-leaning positions on the economy and Israel?

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 2 points 1 day ago

As long as a majority of Americans see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires, Sanders’ economic policies have less mass appeal and offer more opportunities for attack ads than you think. It needs to be stressed that people voted for Trump not just because he’s a loud-mouthed racist and sexist and they like that, but also because he inherited the (irrational) image of Republicans being better for the economy.

https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/trackers/fame-and-popularity-bernie-sanders

He's more popular than either Trump or Kamala Harris was, and people seemed to think both of them had enough mass appeal.

The image of Trump exists more or less in a media vacuum, because they can't say much of anything about either Trump or Kamala. Bernie speaks directly about the economy, in terms that people can understand, and every time he says things, he draws wild amounts of appeal from the both the downtrodden right-voting people and the downtrodden left-voting people, who are otherwise left with nothing but responding to the vague promptings of the media within the vacuum.

Even Trump has to imitate Bernie's type of speaking, talking about draining the swamp and fighting for the little man, but he can't do it very well. The media has to fill in the blanks for him. Bernie can do it directly, and from what I've seen, it works very well. Do you remember when he went on Joe Rogan and what people's reaction was to that?

Public opinion on Israel was, even among college kids, very different in 2016, before the current wave of massed anti-Israel propaganda from Russian, Chinese and Iranian bot farms sweeping over social media - and even now most voters (as in: people who actually vote) are still more pro-Israel than pro-Palestine (which makes sense, given how important of a partner Israel is to the US) - and it’s still not high on the list of priorities for most, not even remotely high enough to be mentioned side-by-side with economic policy, which is and almost always has been the number one priority.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/611375/americans-views-israel-palestinian-authority-down.aspx

You might be right. I think a huge factor is that on left-wing social media, which is what you and I use, the Gaza issue was hugely amplified and linked to Biden/Harris, in a way that other issues that were much more favorable were not. For the normie social media, I think they did the same thing with the economy, which also worked gangbusters.

Are you saying that the polls are completely wrong? What are you basing the idea on that the “majority of the people” (reminder: the majority of voters just elected Trump - he actually got the popular vote this time, which is deeply, deeply troubling) have left-leaning positions on the economy and Israel?

I am saying the polls are, in general, completely wrong, yes. I think the most recent election which was anything but the toss-up they predicted is a good example of that.

Bernie's economics are "left," but within the spectrum of the average American voter, they aren't seen as left-only. He doesn't care much about Democrat branding issues. He cares about people's pain and how to stick it to the crooks, and he speaks well about it. That's why the Democrats didn't like him.

[–] iltoroargento@lemmy.sdf.org 24 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Bernie certainly had/has more support than young, white, college educated men. In 2016, so many people from different ages and walks of life were at the two of his rallies I attended and basically all the people I knew voting blue were more interested in Bernie that Hillary.

I see that he got shafted by media and the party more than he was not as popular.

[–] niucllos@lemm.ee 1 points 1 day ago

He's also not popular with the stable, middle class democratic electorate who make up a plurality of their consistent voters. I think they'd vote for him in the generals if he won the primaries but I don't think even with media hype he can win those primaries without a massive wave of independents voting in them

[–] realitista@lemm.ee 3 points 1 day ago

The polls disagree, no one ever polled better against Trump than Sanders.

[–] Cruxifux@feddit.nl 13 points 1 day ago

You think his appeal is only to white college educated men? What a fucking wild take.

[–] PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat 16 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I’m usually the one defending the Democrats against whatever accusation, and I completely approve this message. It’s the 2016 DNC’s fault, and a lot of them are still around making equally bad and corrupt decisions.

The difference being that it takes the standpoint, “We need to take over the Democrats or make something better, so the world doesn’t burn.” It’s the similar but very different standpoint, “It’s the Democratic Party’s fault that the world is burning and I’m not helping until they get better” that is unhelpful.

Edit: https://lemmy.world/post/21721606

[–] sonori@beehaw.org 16 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The silver lining is that everyone from Lemmy, to youtube, to Bernie seems to have correctly identified the problem early on this time around, so much of the anger is being directed towards the party establishment for screwing up the easy win as it is towards Trump. The question is whether or not that anger can be turned towards productive action to gain control of the DNC, or will be quashed by the establishment once again.

Time, and agitation, will tell.