Thank you indeed, much better experience
this post was submitted on 04 Mar 2024
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Your welcome as always. It is a point of difference in the sea of Lemmy instances that hopefully, like you've said, makes the content more enjoyable.
User voting is the best feature reddit ever had. I can't even comprehend when Lemmy instances want downvotes removed. Do you not understand why Twitter is a flaming wreck on the altar of Engagemagog, while reddit was largely functional in spite of absentee landlords? Moderation is what keeps a forum from becoming 4chan - and users moderating each other is a great first approximation. Even sorting good stuff first and bad stuff later can be great for everyone, before removing a single comment or commenter.
Moderation is what keeps a forum from becoming 4chan...
Exactly.
...and users moderating each other is a great first approximation.
No it's not. Downvotes only matter if the person caresβnot even if they're arguing in good faith or not. If I literally don't care what my vote count is, having a negative number won't change that.
All it proves is a mob can vote together. It doesn't prove why the comment is bad, because it could be a very reasonable comment that people simply don't like. I'm sure you've seen plenty of times where someone throws cold water on a topic, but the substantive pushback comes from other users debating the claims, not attaching a negative number to it.
Likewise, bad-faith actors should be moderated by actual moderators, not general usersβand unlike Reddit, you not only have community mods, but you have instance mods who aren't (usually) beholden to corporate interests.
While I can appreciate that people like to be able to sort by vote count, I believe all that does is create artificial bias. If a comment is truly that bad, a moderator should probably be looking at it, anyway.
Ultimately, this is Lemmy. We have the opportunity to create something better than Reddit that fosters better discourse.
Agreed
Downvotes keep assholes hidden whether or not they "care." They protect you from exposure to the worst loudmouths, before the moderators are even awake.
And I've seen moderators erase stuff they "simply don't like." People are people. Downvotes are at least a democratic form of exclusion, and have softer consequences than outright censorship. You are free to scroll down and expand where someone's taking a kicking for a presumably-awful comment. But Lemmy severs whole subthreads when one comment gets removed.
Why do even you care if a comment's been downvoted for mere disagreement, if you don't think getting buried matters?
While I can appreciate that people like to be able to sort by vote count, I believe all that does is create artificial bias.
That selection is the central function of this sort of website. The front page is not a chronological feed of what everyone posts, or a true-random potpourri of the last twenty-four hours.
The whole friggin' idea is relying on crowds to sort things.
Otherwise - why have votes at all? Why not get on your admin's case for allowing upvotes, the way you'd apparently chide them for considering downvotes? Feedback is necessary. The use of feedback is why reddit mattered, and the absence of negative feedback is why competing sites sucked. Twitter is a harassment engine where the only response besides engaging with trolls or silently taking abuse is to report someone and cross your fingers. Facebook is a disinformation hugbox, by design, openly encouraging group owners to be heavy-handed petit dictators. TikTok is a firehose of sludge that does not give a dang whether you like it.
Seeing these posts celebrating the lack of a crucial feature is like finding out some instances are flat forums. Like you'd have to scroll through seven pages of signatures and block-quotes to get this reply. Reddit's only good decisions were downvotes, nested comments, and compartmentalization, in that order, and it is bizarre how many people want their choices limited to even less than that.
Otherwise - why have votes at all? Why not get on your admin's case for allowing upvotes, the way you'd apparently chide them for considering downvotes?
Seeing these posts celebrating the lack of a crucial feature is like finding out some instances are flat forums.
Friend, what is your purpose here? I made a post on my instance on the instance-specific community for these sorts of posts, with the express purpose of encouraging their decision.
Even if I conceded your points, which I don't, what do you hope you'll achieve in trying to convince me I'm wrong in my own house? If you don't like it, don't join instances like these. That's what makes the Fediverse great.
Then what was the point in making this post at all? You wanna talk about how great this idea is. I vehemently disagree. Disagreement is the only negative feedback your instance allows, which you are specifically celebrating. How could this interaction possibly be surprising to you?
Especially when half the argument is - let's say you're completely right. Why not go one step further? Upvotes still create a gradient, driven solely by users, untouchable by mere moderators. You could petition your instance to be better. Admins of major instances routinely seek that kind of feedback.
It is trivially possible to make moderators the sole power in any community.
Why isn't that what you want?
Then what was the point in making this post at all?
Because I wanted to encourage my admins for a choice I like. Sorry you don't like what my admins do, but that's why I'm here and you're on sh.itjust.works
Sometimes, people just like to be nice. A weird concept, I know, but this isn't Reddit.
I remember private communities being on the roadmap for Lemmy (e.g. limited to the local users)
I guess once we'll have them we'll be able to discuss topics like this among ourselves.
I mean, even if that never comes to pass, this community is called "Reddthat Community and Support."
The core topic is Reddthat's community. If people don't like how we do things, it seems strange to whinge about it here.
But on the bright side, I was able to add a handful of especially tedious people to my blocklist. So not only can I not see their downvotes, but now I can't see them period!
You've been lovely, and I hope you have an amazing week!
Thanks, have a good one too!
In the absence of downvotes, your condescension allows no recourse besides silently weathering the backhanded abuse, or getting shitty comments like this one.
Do not act surprised when you get shitty comments like this one.
βThis isnβt Redditβ Look guys. Gotta make sure we know this place that isnβt Reddit isnβt Reddit. lol. And yeah Iβd just downvote you. But you prefer this.
Downvotes keep assholes hidden whether or not they βcare.β
It also keeps people that don't subscribe to the circle jerk opinion hidden, creating an even bigger circle jerk like most of lemme already is.
The voting system has been shown to be too easy to brigade/manipulate and to just create endless circle jerks.
Agree
Agreed. Hexbear doesn't have downvotes either.
I find that it just discourages discussion by enforcing an already majority opinion; people pretend as if something being downvoted alone is proof of it being wrong somehow. And there's the report button for things that actually break rules.
I haven't interacted with a hexbear user for a while, but on this one I agree.
I've always wondered- does that work when other instance users are involved? Downvoting worked for me just now (which I undid)
You send the downvote to your instance. Your instance takes note of it. It then forwards the "state change" to our instance. Our instance drops the request as we do not have downvotes enabled, and that's it. :)
I do see one down vote when using voyager. Is this just being pulled from people who down voted it on my instance?
Yes. Downvotes would be shown locally only. So it's only your instance.
That's because where communities are 'hosted' act as a central authority, think a web with the host in the middle, instead of a completely decentralized version.
The beehaw incident defederation post over here: https://reddthat.com/post/35325 goes into more detail about the inner workings of communities.
On instances that do not use downvotes they aren't counted when viewed from that instance.
FWIW, they are not counted at all, Lemmy drops the request before it makes it to the DB. So we (reddthat) have no way of knowing (from our side) if there are any down votes happening.
Which, depending on your point of view, could be a good or bad thing.
downvotes are only disabled on the specific instance but still enabled if I am viewing from a federated instance
Yep, but the point is I don't have to see it. I could have 20k downvotes, but I'll never know. Out of sight, out of mind. I personally believe it poisons the discourse, but I know some people like it.
You also don't see the upvote count either, unless you have it enabled. My instance for some reason doesn't allow me to downvote anyone, and I can't see upvotes.
To me it just sounds like you want to feel good about the things you're able to make others agree on, and simply don't want to face the fact that sometimes you may say awful stuff.
The above is not directed at you but anyone who would say yes upvotes, no downvotes.
If I downvoted your comment right now, because I disagreed with it, what does that tell you? Are you wrong? Am I just an asshole having a bad day? How would you know? What if nobody reads your comment, because it falls outside their filters? Is your comment any less rational? How do you ensure quality dissent is protected?
Downvoting is a lazy way to make a comment. It tells you nothing about the quality of its content, only that some people disagreed with it. Meanwhile I could provide actual critique of your comments, which provides that all-too-necessary context, and I can always dissent with or without downvoting.
But to your point about upvotes, I prefer commentary/critique plus offering an upvote as extra dopamine for the commentor where warranted. Life has plenty of negativity without filing our lives with more that isn't strictly necessary. I don't need nor want to "punish" people with downvotes, hence why I'm on this instance.
So no, it's not just because people like me "don't want to face that we say say awful stuff," because that presumes downvoting is only used for "awful stuff" and that we are just trying to avoid consequences; it's a baseless strawman of people like me who just want a more positive experience and aren't trying to recreate Reddit.
ETA: also, I just noticed that you're on my instance. I don't know what is going on with your client, but Reddthat has upvotes enabled. Maybe it's the app you're using...?
Probably just my app, nor have I ever cared. Points are entirely imaginary, however I do like being able to ignore the obvious trolls, which downvoting helps with.
Yes you can make reports, you can block, you can do all sorts of things. However, isn't it easier when crowd sourced? Hive minds absolutely are an issue, but they are just as much an issue with upvotes and downvotes. If I see someone is already actively critiquing and commenting on an asshole, why should I jump in? Rather id prefer to be able to add my-1 and move on with the day.
However, isn't it easier when crowd sourced?
Easier? Maybe, but I find that option far more dangerous. Mobs are fucking stupid, and they can't be reasoned with.
No thanks. I'll trust my moderation to the admins, and if I don't like it, I can pick a different instance or block people. That's the beauty of the Fediverse.
If I see someone is already actively critiquing and commenting on an asshole, why should I jump in? Rather id prefer to be able to add my-1 and move on with the day.
And this is exactly my point; I wouldn't. Adding a -1 isn't a contribution, in my eyes. It's an illusion of one. The person doing the critique is doing the actual work, and downvoting is just lazy commentary.
And thus, I've made a post directed at the admins of this instance encouraging and thanking them for their decision to keep downvoting turned off. If you aren't a fan, you can actually find an instance that is more suited to the experience you want and still remain a part of Lemmy and the Fediverse.
π€Lemmy Karma Botπ€
You have 46,537 upvotes and 13,391 downvotes
I am not a bot and this action was performed manually. I also made up the numbers.
Click here to not buy me a coffee!
Missed opportunity for a rickroll. You monster.
Imagine being worried of downvotes!
Yonatan Zunger, the lead engineer on Google+, once wrote a post about the research Google did to decide that downvotes don't foster healthy discussions. Sadly his post has been lost to time, but I found it pretty convincing. It's also refreshing not to feel the need to find and downvote every comment in a heated thread that's, racist, fascist, transphobic, etc.
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When downvotes are disabled, you depend solely on moderators to decide what kind of content is acceptable. As an anarchist, I abhor this.
You still do. The downvoted content doesn't go away until it's removed, and you run too much of a risk of mob mentality with downvoting for my taste
Suppose a cryptofascist is saying dogwhistles in a thread. If I report it, I'm depending on the moderators to either recognise the dogwhistles or listen to and trust my explanation. If downvotes were enabled, I could do something about the problem other than debating a fascist.
Thankyou for your opinion. As a non-reddthat user this stance does not have to make sense to you, nor do you need to worry about it, as it has completely no affect to you, nor your instance.
Have a great day.
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