Just one more lane, bro

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Runter vom Theorie-Ross, hin zur tatsächlich, anfassbaren Verbesserung der “normalen” Leute. Dann wählen sie auch keine Nazis.

Da bin ich bei dir, aber um anfassbare Verbesserungen zu erreichen muss man irgendwie Einfluss haben. Und ich gehe einfach mal davon aus, dass der Kanzler hier nicht mitliest.

Das heißt wir müssen uns erstmal Einfluss aufbauen, indem wir erstmal ein paar Linke auf lokaler Ebene zusammenbringen. Mit dieser Gruppe kann man dann schauen, ob man irgendwas organisieren kann, was Menschen hilft.

Beispiel: Die de-industrialisierung passiert doch längst. Das Gegenangebot kann jetzt nicht bloß sein “achja?! Erzähl doch Mal!” Zu rufen und auf die Antworten der Leute, die auch nur Gefühlte Wahrheit sind, wieder zu sagen “achja, wo das denn?!”. Das hilft doch niemanden. Genauso wenig wie das aufzählen unzähliger Studien. Alles richtig, hilft nur nicht.

Ja, aber oft ist das Gerede von „De-Industriealisierung“ halt nicht mehr als ein Gefühl. Und da kann es nicht schaden nachzufragen und zuzuhören. Zum einen lernt man so die Sorgen von Menschen zu verstehen und zum anderen lässt man das nicht einfach als objektive Wahrheit stehen.

Wenn man nachfragt „Wie kommst du denn darauf?“, kann die Person ihrem Frust freien Lauf lassen. Und dann merkt man auch relativ schnell, ob die Person nur irgendwas nachplappert oder ob sie sich z.B. tatsächlich ihre Heizkosten nicht mehr leisten kann. Und dann kann man schauen, ob es konstruktivere Wege gibt die teilweise berechtigte Wut in Form von z.B. Aktivismus einzusetzen anstatt nur vor sich hin zu meckern.

Jup. Dem Staat entgingen 2023 13 Milliarden Euro, weil es nicht genug Betriebsprüfer gibt

https://www.geldfuerdiewelt.de/p/betriebsprufer-steuern-lindner-finanzamt-hoefgen

Finde ich nicht gut, wie die Verbotspartei hier den freien Markt zwangsregulieren will

Tja. Hätte man doch nur mal auf die erblindeten Demonstranten gehört

Och ne bidde nich. Da wird doch nur wieder so ein beschisser Kult drum aufgebaut, um Krieg zu romantisieren

Halbe Vulkangruppe

What IDF is doing is not remotely a ethnic cleansing

It is.

Quote:

it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.

or a genocide, that’s a genocide.

I never said, that its a genocide.

So maybe we could start to call the things with their name.

I do.

The “few ten thousands” were elected from the millions of people.

Yes, Hamas got 44,45% of the votes in 2006. But 43,5% of Palestinians in Gaza weren‘t even alive then. Most people, that live in Gaza today, didn‘t vote Hamas in 2006.

Is it awful that this happen ? Of course. Is it unexpected ? No.

I agree. Both the IDF and Hamas acted very predictable.

Well, I have not yet read anything that condemn what Hamas did on October the 7th

Why is that important, when we discuss, weather killing civilians is justified? I condemn the moral and legal crimes of Hamas. I condemn the rapes. I condemn the murder. I condemn what happened to the corpses afterwards. I condemn the attack on the another state. Are you happy now?

Yes, they are not killing them intentionally, they are collateral damages (awful but sad reality).

This was a collateral damage?

If the IDF was trying to intentionally kill civilians, let’s say that from a military point of view they are a joke.

Israel can‘t risk getting that much bad publicity. And why would they want to kill every Palestinian? That would be a waste of bullets in the minds of many Israeli politians. They want uninhabited land to settle on. Most of these far right politians don‘t care, what happens with the Palestinians.

Maybe, but it is also pretty dumb to not fulfill the with of Hamas and let them kill Israel civilian unpunished.

I think it is possible to fight Hamas without committing war crimes.

I am the one arguing that if the civilian make a choice then they pay the price.

Already answered that.

Well maybe, just maybe, if they try to be a good neighbor, Israel could begin to consider it.

What is the Palestinian civilian supposed to do to be a good neighbor? And why has Israel a right to determine if Palestine is allowed to be a state.

Obviously it is not something that could happen in a day, but it is something that can happen only if both side collaborate.

Yes. And Israel and Hamas are doing their best to prevent this collaboration.

No, I expect that the civilians do not vote for Hamas

Call me, when you find a time machine.

and help IDF to find the fighters to eradicate only Hamas fighters.

I am 100% sure there are Palestinians, that do that. There is collaboration in every war. But why would they do that? Why would they help a force, that tries to murder them against a force, that „only“ oppresses them?

I am not aware that the Israel constitution has the extermination of Gaza in it

I knew you would come up with that. I never said that. Stop arguing against things you make up. I was saying, that the IDF is currently murdering them, not that it is written in their constitution.

but it is true the opposite.

The charter of Hamas is neither the constitution of Gaza, nor Palestine. Saying that is like saying the election program of the democratic party is the constitution of the US, because Joe Biden is the president.

Partially. Palestinian elected Hamas, so as far as I am concerned Hamas is the Legitimate Representation of Palestinians. All the rest is a consequence

And I disagree. Is it now acceptable to commit war crimes?

Now stating facts made me an awful human… nice.

You didn‘t just „state facts“. You stated facts and then advocated for ethnic cleansing.

Or maybe the fact that I belive that a person (or a population) should be held responsible for their choices

Its astounding to see, how fast Israel-supporters go from „its awful that these innocent people are dying because of Hamas“ to „all Palestinians are one evil entity seeking nothing but to bath in the blood of raped women“ in one comment if it fits the narrative they are trying to push.

what an awful thing to say in these times…

Yes. Saying millions of people should be murdered, because of the actions of a few tenthousands is a awful thing to say. It was awful in the past and luckily still is awful today.

The question is: why the children should left behind if Egypt opens the border ? Are their parents so awful to left their children behind as they are fleeing ?

Separation in the chaos, child could be injured, child is too weak to walk and mother to starved to take it with her. There are plenty of reasons, why a mother and a child can be separated in a warzone. That you refuse to acknowledge these factors doesn‘t speak for your empathie.

No, they are not fair game, as every civilian is not fair game, in a war.

I am glad, that you acknowledge this.

I only noted that there is a possible solution to minimize the civilian deaths that could be implemented without Israel’s intervention.

Could be a solution to save lifes if we manage to feed all those people and provide medical help, yes. But it also blames a neutral third party instead of the party, that causes the suffering by blocking aid and bombing areas, they declared to be safe for civilians.

Why EU don’t pursue this option ?

Because Egypt already has taken in a lot of Palestinians and demanding they take even more wouldn‘t be smart on a diplomatic level.

But the problem here is that you people think that it is ok for Hamas to explicity target civilians

Literally nobody here, besides you, thinks its okay to target civilians.

while is wrong when Israel kill a civilian as a collateral damage.

So you are trying to tell me, that Israel didn‘t kill a single civilian intentionally?

collateral damage that is what Hamas wants as they openly stated. Read something about Mosab Hassan Yousef if you don’t belive me.

Its pretty dumb of Israel to fulfill the wish of Hamas, don‘t you think? Again: Nobody here is defending Hamas. You are the only one arguing in favor of killing civilians.

No, they are not worth to die but in the end the only option for them to be safe is to collaborate with Israel in eradicating Hamas and become an affidable interlocutor for peace talks.

And how is this supposed to happen, if Israel doesn‘t even recognize Palestine? Do you expect the Palestinians to sign a petition asking nicely to not murder them?

I could understand why Israel has some qualms to make an accord with someone that has in its charter the objective to destroy them.

I could understand why Palestinians may have some qualms to make an accord with someone that is murdering them.

And again: Palestinians =/= Hamas, Legitimate Representation of Palestinians =/= Hamas, starving Child in Gaza =/= Hamas

No, I don‘t have scientific studies to back up my thesis. There most research towards right-wing or left-wing extremism focuses on the reasons or „reasons“ people have for radicalizing and how to prevent it from happening. Also extremists tend to be skeptical towards any person, that tries to understand their networks.

Thats why most knowledge we have about extremist structures and mentalities comes from people, that aren‘t extremists anymore. In Germany we have around 33 people per year, that call the exit program for left wing extremism, 8 of whom people that actually want help. There aren‘t statistics for people, that aren‘t far-right extremists anymore, but the private Organization Exit counted alone in the state of Nordrhein-Westfalen 145 cases of people, that want to leave the far-right in 2015. Therefore we have a very limited pool of people, that want to give scientists information about internal structures and the interrelationship of violence.

Its just what I have experienced so far. Obviously there are some neonazis, that continue their „activism“, but most of them stop at some point or at least become less active, because they know that their car could go up in flames, if they attack a refugee.

There however are some people, that left the far right, that say that they were scared of attacks from political opponents and that this fear influenced their behavior and made them paranoid, because they didn‘t know, if there were people observing them, who those people were and how many antifascists potentially observed them.

If you are a far right extremist and hear stories about a group called „Antifa“, that sets shit on fire and attacks far right extremists its going to scare you. And if someone then publishes the job, the address and name of you or one of your fellow local neonazis and puts an Antifa-Symbol on the flyer, you are going to afraid. They can act as tough, as they want: The thought, that 20 masked people you know nothing about could hunt you down and beat you up in an dark alley, when you come back from home is fucking terrifying. It doesn‘t matter, if this danger is real. It only matters, weather they thinks its real.

Everything that happened is: there was one violent attack on a neonazi, there is a lot of news coverage, some guy collects informations about his local neonazis and prints some flyers. Thats enough to intimidate them for months and prevents attacks. You attack one far right extremist to prevent hundreds of attacks against innocent people.

They won‘t feel safe at their home, when their address is doxxed by some mysterious group they know nothing about and will probably have to move. They are going to have neither the money, nor he time to do more nazi shit after an „outing“ (thats what german antifascists call the doxxing of a neonazi).

They will probably lose their job after an outing. Their neighbors will mostly distance themself from them. They will have to move, if they want to feel safe. They will be kicked out of any association, party or organization (that isn‘t a neonazi group, obviously). Friends will distance themself from them. An outing is an incredible powerful and potentially destructive tool. This way we isolate neonazis from the rest of society and force them into their own echo chambers. This way we ensure, that actions hit neonazis instead of democratic right wingers, that by coincidence in the same association as the neonazis.

Then we apply pressure on individuals of said group until they can‘t stand it any longer and either move to a different town or lay down their political activities. This way we can regularly force their leaders and important figures of neonazi-subculture into an „apolitical“ life and therefore destabilize the far right.

Obviously its also important, that neonazis get an opportunity to reintegrate into society, if they lay down their ideology, but thats not my job. My job is to make them hate their life so much, that they develop the will to take the helping hand exit programs offer them.

It definitely is a kind of mob justice, but mob justice is the only thing you can do, if the state isn‘t doing its job of protecting people.

Tldr: neonazis are just going to stop harassing people, if there are consequences. If the state doesn‘t enforce these consequences citizens are either going to enforce consequences or get terrorized by the neonazis. Attacks are a great way of intimidating neonazis into leaving people life their lifes. If they are busy fighting you they don’t have time to attack more vulnerable groups.

Edit: shortest left leaning comment

I agree. Killing a nazi only causes more problems. You will be hunted by both the police and his fellow neonazis and they can and will use it for propaganda.

But to apply psychological pressure you need to set examples. Why would they stop if they don‘t have to deal with any consequences?

I am not arguing in favor of beating every neonazi you meet on the street. One violent attack every few months, that is published widely by the media is enough to remember them, that violence creates counter-violence and that they should think twice, if its worth getting their arm broken just to harass someone they don‘t like.

But at least in Germany the main reasons for people to join exit programs are:

• relationship with people from a different „race“
• fear of violence from political opponents
• violence between neonazis

Not necessarily. There are a lot of neonazis, that stopped their political activity after an attack and even if they continue to do nazi shit they will become more paranoid. What most militant antifascists are trying to do is to scare nazis out of politics. Its mostly psychological warfare

Thanks for the sources.

The first article doesn‘t invalidate my thesis. It explains the difference between sex and gender.

The second article argues against the sex binary, which I never defended. I view „male“ and „female“ (in the context of the biological sex) as terms for a combination of chromosomes. The article still was absolutely worth reading, thanks.

The third article actually lists a bunch of stuff I didn‘t know about. I‘m going to look into that.

As you may have guessed I don‘t have a doctorate in genetics, just like you, I assume.

I don‘t get to determine biological definitions, but the definition of a biological sex, if such a thing exists, is still heavily debated in science. Therefore a consensus couldn‘t be reached so far. I just argued for the definition, that sounds the most logical to me. If you have other definitions or models I am open always open to learn.

So you are male even if you have a complete set of female sex organs and no male sex organs?

Biologically yes. At least according to my definition, but thats a different discussion.

Literally the only way to determine ‘male’ or ‘female’ is a DNA test?

Biologically, yes.

We’ve never been able to determine that before Flemming discovered chromosomes in the late 19th century?

In the 19th century we assumed, that social and biological gender are the same and ignored, that basically every definition of „male“ or „female“ at the time had exceptions and wasn‘t applicable to everyone.

That’s really weird, because the etymology of the word male traces it back to the 14th century.

I am surprised it doesn‘t traces back even further. People believed in all kind of shit back then. Thats no argument.

Now I’m not math expert, but I’m pretty sure 14 comes before 18.

That doesn‘t make sense in the slightest. By that logic the earth is flat, because the first models of a flat earth were published before the first models of a round earth.

Male

Biological gender: A Person with two X-Chromosons

Social Gender: Anyone who wants to be a woman