I know the perks, just can't afford the price.
this post was submitted on 26 Sep 2024
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Electric Vehicles
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Electric Vehicles are a key part of our tomorrow and how we get there. If we can get all the fossil fuel vehicles off our roads, out of our seas and out of our skies, we'll have a much better environment. This community is where we discuss the various different vehicles and news stories regarding electric transportation.
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For real. If I could afford a good EV I would have an EV.
Not to mention the TCO. Battery lifetime will be interesting when vehicles are out of warranty.
A traditional ICE vehicle will last decades beyond the Warranty period.
Some of the cheaper EVs have batteries dying within months of warranty expiration; replacement remanufactured change-over batteries are more than the value of a new vehicle.
As long a manufacturers have guaranteed buyback and the vehicles are fully recyclable, that would be fine, but it isn’t something the cheaper brands aren’t offering.
I've been tracking this.
The rough numbers I've seen from looking locally is the smaller cheaper ones tend to end their 8 year cycle with batteries worse off than advertised. Tesla included.
The more expensive ones sold back then seem to be ticking over as expected or in some cases slightly better than expected. The first Bmwi for example.
But the issue is that the volumes back then were far lower than what they are now. So data will be skewed based on customer type - do cheaper ones buy the car and do way more KMS / charge then more aggressively, vs expensive EV owners taking better care of the battery (using super fast less) and or doing less Kms?
We will see car manufacturing companies start to take notice of how their cars do and either advertise theirs are doing better than expected (while engineering the battery to be worse in the future to save money), or adjusting their warranty so they don't get caught with the shittier battery replacements.
They have a "rent a EV" thing iny country, i think i'll look into that. I don't really have range anxiety with ev's, but just the thought that your battery gets worse over time and a replacement is basically a new car gives me the creeps.
This will be a non issue when/if 3rd party replacement batteries are prevalent
That would be wonderful. They would need to make the Change-Over because of the plethora of battery platforms available. I can see them being quite expensive though. Lots of labour to test and refactor that many cells by hand. Consumed cells will need to be recycled and specialist technicians trained and experienced in working with high voltages will need to do the battery swaps in and out of vehicles.
One other good benefit would be that vehicles that are no longer roadworthy will be taken off the road. If an EV battery technician notices damaged structure, they aren’t likely to want to replace the battery in the vehicle. EV battery technicians that aren’t responsible will be selected against by Darwin’s Law. ⚡️🔥💨⚡️
That only works if you don't consider the actual engine failure rate and the maintenance cost of gas engines and the money saved by using electricity instead of gas...
Unless you don't drive a lot (in which case the battery won't wear out anyway) you spend way more per year on a gas car then an electric car.
Hell, to make things simpler, even in the long term, total $/km is lower on an electric car.
We let us do the maths; A low end ICE vehicle (historically in Australia) would last 20-30 years if it is serviced regularly. $30k. Let us pretend it uses a tank of fuel a week ($5000),annual Servicing is $1000 a year and insurance is $1000 a year. That is $7000 per year running cost. That is $30k+30*$7k =$240k
Let’s take an EV, assuming insurance is $1000, servicing is $500, cost is $100k and lifetime is 10 years before the battery is useless. I’m not going to worry about electricity. 3*$100k+30*$1500 = $750k
“That’s not fair, you can buy a cheap EV for $50k, and batteries may last longer than 10 years!” Ok then, 2*$50k+30*$1500=$550k
You're making up numbers to come to the conclusion that fits your narrativ, good job 👍
I would like to see your calculations. Please enlighten us.
Ford exec is somehow ignorant of how many people live in apartments or rented homes where they can't install car charging circuits.
He did say "most". But even if you live in an apartment you may not know it's possible to charge at a home, just not necessarily your home. So it's still valid even if apartment dwellers don't benefit. I think it is true that "most" people think you have to find a charger and then sit there for an hour everytime you need to charge when in fact you rarely need to do a full charge from 0, and if you have a home charger, rarely need to find a charger. Charging stations are only needed when you are travelling long distance and not many people are doing that routinely. If you are then buy an ICE or plan longer journeys.
I think the biggest benefits though are much cheaper driving and instant, consistent power: no turbo lag, no gear changes, much quieter inside. I do occasionally have range anxiety, but then I've almost run out of fuel in an ICE before due to bad planning and closed service stations, so it is what you make of it.
There isn't a good solution right now for apartments, but in Norway they had the idea to make street lights dual purpose with charging points inside. I think that could make life easier for everyone. They wouldn't be fast chargers, but it would replicate the home charger capability for those who can't have them. Infrastructure needs to catch up but I don't miss queuing for fuel.
That's a city/building code issue though, they can force them to install charger even for rental units.
Also if you rent a home you've got outdoors plugs for sure, I tested on a leaf and it charged 25% overnight, enough to drive ~50km at highway speeds.
My daily commute is 75 miles (120 km) round trip. I could drive to work every other day or so.
Ok, so worst case you would have to use an actual charging station for 30 minutes every now and then or maybe never by just leaving the car plugged in all weekend (depending on which car you would get, the Leaf had a "short" range all things considered) IF you were commuting every day. If it's every other day then you can do it out of a 120v plug.
I lived on the third floor of a multi family house and it sucked, but I was able to successfully charge my leaf 2-3 times with a heavy duty extension cord. I wouldn’t recommend it for daily charging, but even without a home charger, it was not out of commission because I couldn’t charge elsewhere in an emergency.
Ford keeps thinking that they're not selling cuz rednecks don't like green trucks but it's really cuz they want $80k for the baseline models that are never available to buy. I don't want a $100k King Ranch edition, I just want a regular damn truck I can afford that doesn't kill the planet, you morons.
I would buy an EV if it was a normal price, had physical knobs and buttons for all functions I need while driving, no custom bullshit touchscreen OS (just the regular Android/iOS linkup), and no tracking every single move I make.
I'm from Germany, so I don't know how it's in other other countries, but here forget charging at home for a lot of people, because they don't own a house and have no dedicated parking spot. Half the people here are renting only. That's a lot of people. So I don't see it as major perk, as I'm in that category and will only be able to charge at work (currently no infrastructure), charge at the supermarket (limited spots and slow charging) or visit a charging station (too expensive with their stupid high prices).
So that's why, unless we get big changes, I'll not get an EV any time soon or mid term. Everyone I talked to says the same, aside of those with home charging but that's the minority.
Oh and btw, no one will pay more for an EV than for a combustion car.
It's interesting to hear a German perspective on this. I know here in the US some places are requiring new apartments and condos to install ev charging in x% of the parking spaces, but that only helps with the new development.
There really needs to be a charging solution for people living in multi-family housing. Or at least prohibit condo associations impeding residents from installing their own charging on the parking space that comes with the condo.
The advantages of ev become obvious once you adjust to the minor changes. Not having to smell your car. Significantly reduced noise on the road. Far more power when you put the pedal down. It's a bit of a laugh when I hop into a price/ size equivalent ice vehicle and it feels like I'm running a wind up McDonald's toy. I've had to buy tires, refill wiper fluid, blades. No oil changes. no belts. No oil changes. No spark plugs. The thing isn't trying to shake itself apart just by operating. I never have to stop for gas. Next vehicle will be an EV for certain. Going back to an ice would be a major step backwards.
If you cannot charge at home or somewhere else cheap I really wouldn't bother at this point. UK we are slowly rolling out charging via lampposts, which will address the 30% of people who don't have off road parking in the UK. We just need to speed up the roll out and make it a requirement for landlords to support renters installing chargers.
If you can charge at home and have an EV tariff then the savings are significant in the UK. We put between 400 and 500 kwh of charge into our EVs every month at a cost of 8p per kwh, so less than £40 a month. We get an average of 4 miles per kwh, so approx 2000 miles for £40 per month. Even assuming 50mpg for a petrol ICE that would be about £280 a month, significantly more if petrol goes back up again.
Nope. The perks just don't outweigh charging literally anywhere else.
Can't tow more than 90 miles. It's more expensive. It takes 20 minutes best case if you don't have to wait for a charger.
The PHEV truck is by a long shot a better overall product than full ev truck.
Most Americans do not live in a trailer, which they need to tow for 90miles on a regular bases. In fact most probably have never towed anything.
20min charging after 3h drive is totally fine. There are people who actually like to take a break from driving, take a piss and eat something decent when on the road.
The reailty is that most Americans stay within EV range for months, only going to work, shopping and local social stuff. That means no gas station for months.
Nope. Y'all got to drop hand waiving away 20 minute stops lol, normal people do not stop that long.
And you're correct that most folks stay under 80 miles. Which is why it's a waste to have a full EV battery vs 80 miles of range. The 80 miles day to day is perfect and having a gas backup for longer trips eliminates any concern over range or having to wait an hour for a free charger.
PHEVs are below 50miles of offical electric range. In the real world it is lower. So nowhere close to 80 miles.
So you have a choice, fill up your car in a gas station on a regular bases or wait a bit longer when you charge up on a longer road trip.
Obviously ideal would be hsr for longer trips, but well.
On any kind of road trip... The only time I'm driving beyond the range of my battery. Taking a longer stop is not uncommon. Walk the dogs. Grab a bite. Done charging back on the road. I drove from Detroit to Madison with no issues. The reality is that most of the miles folks drive every day is within 50 miles of their home. Grocery store, work, school, day care, games a do for that and EV makes a lot of sense.
If you are big into camping and towing trailers every weekend which some folks do. An EV makes no sense. The power density for the weight doesn't make sense. It's why EV for commercial trucks doesn't make a lot of sense either. Hydrogen will make more sense for those that need higher power density but want to be green.
Good for you. I drive straight there with 5 minute stops. That shit will add hours for my traveling. Stop telling other people is not a problem because it is for many people. It's absurd I have to day this crap.
I don't need fuel economy for my towing needs. I need fuel economy for daycare.
I think you just agreed with me, but it's honestly hard to tell. EV makes sense for everyday usage for a lot of Americans. It does not make sense for every American. Especially those that regularly tow, routinely driving 200+ miles a day or may not have access to a low cost charger.
For those folks especially towers, hydrogen is likely the only viable green option. Batteries are just too heavy for long haul commercial trips and eat up payload that could otherwise be used to ship goods. Power density for demanding applications is paramount.