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Post version 2.5.0, is Duelist just a more OP Warrior? (lemy.lol)
submitted 2 months ago by dotplot@lemy.lol to c/pixeldungeon@lemmy.world
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I am watching RunningFromCake try out the beta 2.5.0 (see https://youtu.be/NCTfD8LTG3U and others). He is playing as duelist/monk. So he is able to try out all the duelist/monk buffs that are coming in version 2.5.0.

It looks to me that Duelist is now simply a better warrior. The duelist has weapon abilities, most of which are guaranteed to hit. That is much better than some pitiful shielding from the warrior's seal, particularly in early-game, when the extra accuracy can be quite useful (and the warrior's seal is at its weakest). That in itself makes duelist seemingly better than warrior. But the subclasses also seem better for the duelist. The berserker's abilities seem to be quite difficult to make use of, since rage does not build fast enough. The gladiator is a more viable class. But the monk's abilities seem to be better than the gladiator's abilities, considering that RunningFromCake can hit a 70 with a dragon kick. And the champion is obviously better than the berserker. So why would warrior ever be preferred over duelist?

RunningFromCake also criticizes the buff to the stone of intution at 2:04 at https://youtu.be/NCTfD8LTG3U. It gives more of an endorphin rush when guessing wrong the first time loses the stone. I agree with his reasoning here. Stone of intuition is very weak, but it does help with the addictive quality of the game.

Also, the transition from v2.4.2 to 2.5.0 resulted in his trinket showing as unidentified in his menu. You can see this at, for example, 20:43 in the video. Idk if this bug has been reported to the developer or not.

Anyways, do you agree with these observations? Why is duelist getting such a buff if it is just an OP warrior?

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[–] sirxdaemon@lemmy.ca 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

For me, since I have a couple of challenges enabled, the warrior seal, which can carry over a single +1 armor upgrade, as well as an enchantment once you get the talent, provide more consistent win rates for the warrior than the duelist. The extra armor especially helps in the early game.

Beating the game is not a sprint but a marathon that requires endurance. The best offense is a good defense and it's particularly true here. You're better off prioritizing having enough armor before you invest in your weapon. I play with reduced scrolls of upgrade but I'll prioritize having +7 scale or plate armor before DM-300. In some cases I'll spend a scroll or two on leather or scale armor to ensure I don't lose a run. That's at the cost of upgrading my weapon later. You can beat the game with a +2 or +3 weapon but it will be harder if you have poor armor.

The shops will always have at least one scroll of identify, remove curse, and magic map. If I don't have a stone of intuition on hand, I like to convert a scroll of identify to 2 intuition so I can find out which is the remove curse. If there's a few other scrolls at the shop, you can end up using more than one scroll's worth of intuition stones but generally you're conserving cost. I typically employ intuition for identitying which is a potion of strength and which are upgrade scrolls in the early game. As well as which potions are which for rooms that require specific ones. I generally try to use the stones sparingly as resources van be sparse in the early game.

[–] Vencedor@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

My playstyle is the same, except I refuse to use any SoUp on anything that isn't a plate armor (if I don't have one already at at least +12) So, if I die because of lack of armor, I call it bad rng and start another run. lol

Also, there's a guaranteed potion of strength between rooms 1 and 2, there aren't usually many potions at that point, I usually just drink them. And, don't waste intuition stone's uses on identifying SoUp while playing warrior, just check between rooms 3 and 4 what scroll you got 2 or 3 of, use it and put it on your armor. It will be attached to the seal. Ez identification. For the rest of the potions and scrolls just clear the whole room you are currently in, including puzzles and convert into alchemical energy all the potions, they will be, in the latest beta, identified. For scrolls convert them first into stones (see if you can use those) then, if the stones are useless to you, convert em into energy. Then you can save your stones of identifying for rings, scrolls you suspect might be of transmutation and potions you suspect can be of experience; and saving too that shop's scroll of identify to use em into the now-not-automatically-identified-by-warrior weapons! Or rings.

[–] sirxdaemon@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I thought there was guaranteed to be 2 strength potions before each boss; so there could be one on 3 and 4 and none on the first two. Perhaps that may be outdated info.

Usually I don't drink random potions unless it looks like I'll die if I don't quaff an unidentified healing potion promptly. Hate to unknowingly drink an XP or healing potion.

I tend to use intuition stones to confirm upgrade scrolls as some runs sorely lack remove curse scrolls, particularly in the beginning, and I don't want to accidentally waste those either. With the Forbidden Runes challenge, there's only 2 upgrade scrolls before Goo so it's more straightforward.

I typically ID potions by brewing 3 of the same seed.

[–] Vencedor@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

There's a strength pot every 2 floors, excluding boss rooms. So, technically, yes, there're 2 pots before each boss, distributed as I mentioned.

[–] CrayonRosary@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

so there could be one on 3 and 4 and none on the first two.

This is incorrect. They are always spread out. One on 1-2 and one on 3-4. I don't know when this changed if it ever has. It's been that way for as long as I remember.

[–] Explodingpineapple64@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

Btw the 'buff' that duelist got in that update is really far more of a rework. 1 energy refund instead of 50% refund is a 60% increase in the 5 cost ability which is huge. Frankly id say that for people who knew how to abuse monk last patch, its actually a huge nerf

[–] CrayonRosary@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

Contrary to what everyone so far has said, I think the duelist has always been better than the warrior. The weapon abilities are strong and varied, and have only gotten stronger in recent patches. The abilities can get you out of so many jams, especially the shield one or the dirk one. And the abilities that daze your enemy (hammers, axe) or increase your attack speed and accuracy (scimitar) make combat so one-sided.

You don't need armor if you kill everything in a couple turns with a high level weapon and guaranteed hits. I have ascended so many times with just +4 scale armor.

I usually play Champion, but sometimes Monk if I get a good wand early. I've definitely abused the hell out of using Round Shield for invulnerability coupled with Meditate. You're immune to all attacks while meditating and then you heal and get wand recharging. I guess that got nerfed though, by not giving back as much energy now.

[–] Vencedor@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

The bug has already been fixed, I saw it on the changelog. I play every single run I intend to win with the warrior (at least 30, give or take), and I've actually won little games with the duelist (like 2, if even that) . I just focus a lot more on armor, I like armor focused playstyle. And warrior's the best for that. I guess that's why I prefer warrior. Funny story: When Evan made it so warrior's talent of identifying weapons and armor got nerfed to only armor because of the duelist having the weapons focus and all of that, I got angry at the duelist because it seemed too weak and now even stealing the best talent from my favourite character (almost literally, because it took it away from the warrior), dunno, I don't use her.

[–] seaQueue@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago

Think of the duelist as a melee wand user (with weapons as wands) and you've got a better read on the class before specialization. The warrior is the tanky physical class, the duelist is the bursty offensive class.

[–] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The warrior is designed to be the simplest class. It’s meant for beginners to help ease them into the games mechanics and pretentiously go for a first win with no challenges enabled.

Duelist is the most advanced class. She’s designed for experienced players, especially who like to play with lots of challenges on. She’s extremely powerful but complicated to play, so it’s a tradeoff. However, she may now be the easiest class for getting your first 9 challenge win.

[–] Vencedor@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

The warrior's the class I found the most complicated and unintended strategies with, bruh. Duelist really seems super straightforward for me.