So how did this particular romantic faux pas become so pervasive?
Let’s start with the apps, which have seismically altered the romantic landscape. Dating once relied on ineffable chemistry and natural conversation, but it’s become gamified, the unwanted love child of online shopping and the job application process. It’s as though in a capitalist, hyper-individualistic society, men are approaching dating as they would a job interview, an opportunity to prove themselves rather than to foster genuine connection. It’s long been apparent that dating and corporate culture have merged: Bumble has a professional networking off-shoot called Bumble Bizz, while other singletons have admitted using LinkedIn to find love rather than jobs. In other words, men are so busy trying to sell themselves that they forget to ask about you.
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Writer Grace Flynn, however, suspects that men’s lack of curiosity might be symptomatic of something darker. “I went on a few dates with a man of many words but few questions,” she tells me. “He was the classic Tarantino-loving, dart-smoking, tattooed type, so unfortunately I couldn’t help but match with him on Hinge.” At first, Flynn didn’t notice that he wasn’t asking her much about herself, as she was naturally volunteering information as it pertained to his (many) stories. But by the third date, she began to suspect that he wasn’t interested in getting to know her, but rather was driven by the fact that she “met his standards visually” and intently listened to him talk: the optimal canvas on which to project a fantasy. “Why would a man ask you questions if the answers jeopardise the version of you he wants you to be?” Flynn asks.
It’s a cynical theory, but one that chimes with Faulkner, who adds that such a unilateral approach will inevitably elicit problems. “If you see a relationship as one where you don’t have to collaborate and you are the centre of the universe rather than ‘we’ are the centre of our relationship, it could cause a warped view of what a romantic relationship entails,” she says.
Of course, men taking on a dominant role in conversation predates technology. We can trace all of this to patriarchal gender norms, which are, consciously or unconsciously, still being propagated. “Women and men are socialised into different communication patterns,” Faulkner says. “I don’t think there are innate differences, but we sometimes teach children in different ways. For instance, women are valued for being nice and agreeable, which often means not being assertive… Men, on the other hand, are taught to be aggressive and to take the lead.” This is particularly evident in romantic interactions, which serve as a kind of microcosm of broader gender dynamics.
First of all I have to say that I identify as non binary but am AMAB. In the timeframe that I had still identified as a Man, I had been on a few dates, granted, not many but still a few to have some experience with the matter. Of course what I say in terms of personal experience is merely anecdotal evidence and can’t be generalized for the whole of the population or worldwide. I am a pretty talktative person and I do ask and have asked alot of questions. In general boys are brought up to handle problems or things in general by doing something about it instead of talking about it, is that a questionable approach? Yes of course, but still you are expected to, like eran_morad put it, be “conditioned to STFU”, depending on how your parents have handled that topic, this could lead from telling you that “you talk as much as a woman” to telling you to “stop babbelng like a waterfall and get to the point” etc. when you grow up. I had been on dates where in most of the cases I had to pick up the slack and keep the conversation going or, even worse, initiate the conversation when I wanted to have one getting shown amost some sort of disinterest from the person I was on the date with (maybe due to the ages of us two at the time? I don’t know). This lead to me one day just trying to see how valuable and interesting you are to the other person to let them initiate the conversation and ask most of the questions. I think due to social media and dating Apps we overvalue ourselves and I mean everybody with that regardless of gender, so if somebody who identifies as a Man doesn’t ask too many questions it could be the case that they have either been discouraged of talking too much by being told comments like the ones above while growing up, or they are testing to see how much value you as a conversation partner, especially when it comes to women, see in him by letting you pursue him instead of him having to pursue you. And if nowadays you are considering yourself to be a “strong independent woman” or something it shouldn’t be that much of a hassle to just show a bit of interest in your date. Not to advocate for strict traditional gender roles or anything but you can’t expect princess treatment (e.g. getting your part of the bill covered, being pursued on a date by him holding the whole conversation etc.) and also consider yourself a “strong independent woman”, I know you haven’t claimed that at all but just as a side note. So even though my experience is entirely subjective, I do think that more and more Men want to try what I did, feel as if they have to keep the conversation going because of past experiences where this was indeed the case, or maybe they want to break out of their conditioning they got as boys and many women don’t seem to like this fact.
This could also be a symptom of the selection process, the men who are the most attractive in the profile might be the most narcissistic and least interested in others.
If it’s true that a small percentage of men are getting the majority of the matches then there’s no incentive for them to make any effort and, if they weren’t already, they’re going to become narcissists.
You could argue that women need to cast their net wider but it seems like the dating apps and their algorithms should take a lot of the blame. It’s in their interests not to do a good job matching people or they’d go out of business, so they keep dangling more attractive matches in front of people that are just out of their reach. So the bulk of people are lonely, hoping they’ll get the right match tomorrow, and a few people get a lot more matches.
It’s just Leopards ate my face shit. “He was the classic Tarantino-loving, dart-smoking, tattooed type, so unfortunately I couldn’t help but match with him on Hinge.”
I pre selected for a stereotype, was surprised he was a stereotype.
Yes, I read that and thought “what does dart-smoking mean?”, then, after a quick Google, I thought “what do you expect?”
I once matched with a girl on one of the apps. It quickly became clear that she had an addiction to the app. One of her reasons for not going on a date was that I was using the free tier of the app, while she paid $15 bucks a month, thus showing I wasn’t truly interested in finding somebody.
I am now married and she is still using the app.
So by my math she has spent about $1500 over the last 8 years to not find love.
People are ultimately responsible for their own choices.
In general, you’re matching based on very shallow criteria, yet expecting a quality match. You may even set unrealistic criteria, perfectly framed photos, exaggerated activities, in the effort to look good. However this is a case where perfecting your public persona is shortchanging yourself.
I certainly have no idea how to fix it, but here’s an example I’ve told many times. I’m 6’3” so prefer taller than average women. I’d certainly put that on my dating app profile. However the most common height of women I’ve dated is 5’2, shorter than average. I don’t think i’m fooling myself about what I prefer, but probably am about the priority. So on a dating app, by virtue of things you can specify plus some lack of self-awareness, I would miss my most memorable relationships
Define quality match.
Truth is most people are just looking for someone to get them hot, not for a marriage. Lots and lots of folks are stuck in the pattern of picking shitty partners based on sexual attraction alone, and not considering any other criteria.
The question didn’t call them hookup apps, so a successful relationship or at least multiple dates
I think it’s just dating apps accentuating existing stereotypes
- my impression is women mostly gatekeeper: do I swipe left or right?
- men need to sell themselves, to get past that gate keeping
You’re setting yourself up in a situation where both know facts about each other, but nothing personal, women are selected mostly by looks and don’t need to initiate, and men are selected mostly by salesmanship, talking. We’re all missing the most important characteristics of each other, and setting the wrong people up for success/failure
men are mostly picked on looks.
women swipe right 5% of the time, compared to like 50% for men.
Men don’t care that much about looks, beyond a basic threshold of average or above. And that’s true for me personally, as much as it is statistically. The thing is most women think 95% of men are ‘below average’.
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Men are also conditioned to STFU.
Perhaps some are wary of asking the ‘wrong’ question and triggering an unknown red flag?
doesn’t even have to be a ‘wrong’ question. it can be an innocuous one.
i went out with an English teacher two weeks ago, from an app. We were chatting about books. She asked me what I was reading and I her, and she went OFF on me that i’m not reading female black authors and started mocking and deriding my interest because hers were ‘superior’ and I was clearly a ‘sexist’ since I only had one white female author on my list of recently read things.
least to say the date was dead at that point. I wasn’t going to ask her any more questions and be lectured/told off more. I finished my drink and left.
I’ve had so many interacts like this… say one ‘wrong’ thing, and the other person LEAPS down your throat about how awful and evil you are and how great they are. It’s insanity.
Yikes! Glad you escaped with minimal damage.
I think a part of it is dating profiles, you already learn a lot of key details about a person before even getting to the date. There’s also the fact that the state of the world is a huge elephant in the room that isn’t a pleasant thing to talk about. The latter I have felt and experienced myself
No the issue is you know nothing about the other person, but make a lot of crappy assumptions based on the profile, and get butthurt when those assumptions don’t come true.
Definitely not something familiar to my experiences but I’m sure it’s still a valid one.
Wow. I always ask women questions on dates. If anything, I think I ask too many.
I was on one date and was asking a girl about herself…casual conversation. I started to notice she looked kind of uncomfortable. Was trying to figure out why. Realized I hadn’t told her anything about myself. Poor girl probably felt like she was being interrogated. So I injected an anecdote here or there through the course of the conversation; this seemed to relax her pretty quickly.
This is sad. As a man, if I go on a date, I’m very curious who my date is. I ask loads of questions. In fact, on one date, I noticed my date was starting to get uncomfortable. I noticed I was just asking questions. So I decided to talk about myself. She seemed to calm down a bit.
I don’t ask women questions on dating apps because they never ask me any.
It’s that simple. Women who engage me… I am glad to chat with. I’m not going to have one-sided conversations with people who have no interest in me.
Just like I had a woman last year match with me on an app, who went ‘hey we had a date a few years ago, i had such a good time, why didn’t you ever follow up and ask me out again?’
and I said ‘I did, you never replied.’
and then she blocks me. lol
lots and lots of people on these apps are totally delusional and their entire strategy is to make up fictional victimhood in their own minds… because nobody is reading their mind and not ‘trying harder’ as they actively reject men. the ‘phenomenon’ is mostly a fiction they make up in their own minds to take any responsibility in the dating process off of themselves, and put it 100% on the man.
the irony I find among couples I know… the woman in the relationship is almost always this straightforward open person who just tells her partner how she feels… instead of playing games and making up delusional situations in which she is the victim of her partner… being a normal well-adjusted person… which is the same type of crazy nonsense you see on ‘wife tiktok’ videos…
