Sales of what ARM games? Apple only just released a bodged together “porting” toolkit and still expects devs to put in the legwork.
Proton was originally intended to run on MacOS, too, but that was dropped as the workload was never gonna end. Apple pulling the rug out on stuff like openGL, and making it clear that vulcan on Mac was never happening.
Not sure what you’re getting at, there are Mac games released all the time on Steam and Valve keeps getting their cut. The bare minimum anyone expects is that Steam itself gets ported to ARM because it’s a web browser and those do horrendously when ran through Rosetta.
ARM Macs can still play 64-bit Intel games of which there is significant back catalogue and new games are released with ARM binaries even on Steam.
The point is that apple is expecting a chicken to hatch out of an egg that doesn’t exist.
Devs will use Metal and apples other proprietary systems on mobile, because a gaming market that has passed critical mass already exists there.
Apple is expecting devs to be willing to do the same on desktop and laptop, before the gaming market for those platforms have hit critical mass. Yes, there are “some” games, but right now, apple simply isn’t doing what’s necessary for it to take off for real. Devs, gamers, and Valve, know that.
Valve was willing to put in the resources back when apple was doing the same, but they stopped long ago and have only been doing the bare minimum of lip service, since. So, Valve packed up, and became re-focused on linux instead.
I’m expecting Valve to keep Steam operational since I own plenty of Mac games there. Valve doesn’t require anything from Apple to deliver a working storefront.
So you’re expecting valve to put in the time to maintain compatibility with a platform that drops support for old APIs and refuses to adopt new mainstream ones?
Valve has clearly decided, that it’s not worth the effort. Apple is hostile to developers and creates extra work because it wants all things to go through their systems.
And I agree. That apples actions make the correct business decision for valve to screw over a minority of users like you, is on valve, but also apple. That Valve needs nothing from apple to run on their systems is a patently stupid claim. Yes, they can make the changes necessary to get the client running a little better. But why would they? The whole gaming ecosystem is doomed if apples non-existent support for it fails to improve.
The difference on platforms like linux, is that valve has joined as a contributor for the whole ecosystem, when they need changes in the OS itself, they themselves can make them. And on windows the graphics pipeline, DirectX, is already industry standard, and the OS ALSO still supports all older versions, AND openGL and Vulcan, too.
So you’re expecting valve to put in the time to maintain compatibility with a platform that drops support for old APIs and refuses to adopt new mainstream ones?
Valve’s answer is no. Put simply even though they take 30%, its very clear that mac users do not make up a huge enough user base to put in the work. In other words the costs of mac development might exceed the income they’d get from max players (but this is just speculation, the point is, its very that Valve thinks its not profitable to develop for mac)
Why put in the work for linux then you might ask?
Well linux uses the same APIs in most cases as windows (Vulkan, OpenGL, and in case of directx, vulkan can “emulate” directx), so its a lot less work to be compatible with linux than it is with mac.
Also Valve owns a console which uses linux as an os, so they do not have to rely on propriatary windows.
Anyway my point is development costs are probably higher than the income they get from mac players.
This discussion started with Valve supposedly making an effort to support Macs. For quite some time now I was speaking about Steam itself. It works but is so shit it’s no wonder they’re bleeding users before they even buy or launch a game.
If you take 30% of sales it’s reasonable to expect you’re going to support your platform for a reasonable amount of time. We are still talking about staggering amounts of money even if it’s 1.4% user base that probably doesn’t purchase as much as Windows users.
With what we know about how Valve is being run internally it’s likely that it’s just not fun anymore and less profitable than alternatives. Incidentally, this leads to a very Google-like behavior which back in the day led me to drop Android for iOS, which in turn led to getting a Mac.
That’s unfortunately not how re-investing incoming money works.
Gaming on Linux only has a future because Valve used “windows money” to bring it alive.
Gaming on Mac, right now, has no prospects. And as it’s proprietary, the only corporation that can really change that, is apple. There is no reason to spend on it. Is that fair? No.
And apple is just as quilty of business decisions that screw a few users by taking things in a direction that’s better for the company and the majority of its customers.
Sales of what ARM games? Apple only just released a bodged together “porting” toolkit and still expects devs to put in the legwork.
Proton was originally intended to run on MacOS, too, but that was dropped as the workload was never gonna end. Apple pulling the rug out on stuff like openGL, and making it clear that vulcan on Mac was never happening.
Not sure what you’re getting at, there are Mac games released all the time on Steam and Valve keeps getting their cut. The bare minimum anyone expects is that Steam itself gets ported to ARM because it’s a web browser and those do horrendously when ran through Rosetta.
ARM Macs can still play 64-bit Intel games of which there is significant back catalogue and new games are released with ARM binaries even on Steam.
The point is that apple is expecting a chicken to hatch out of an egg that doesn’t exist.
Devs will use Metal and apples other proprietary systems on mobile, because a gaming market that has passed critical mass already exists there.
Apple is expecting devs to be willing to do the same on desktop and laptop, before the gaming market for those platforms have hit critical mass. Yes, there are “some” games, but right now, apple simply isn’t doing what’s necessary for it to take off for real. Devs, gamers, and Valve, know that.
Valve was willing to put in the resources back when apple was doing the same, but they stopped long ago and have only been doing the bare minimum of lip service, since. So, Valve packed up, and became re-focused on linux instead.
I’m expecting Valve to keep Steam operational since I own plenty of Mac games there. Valve doesn’t require anything from Apple to deliver a working storefront.
So you’re expecting valve to put in the time to maintain compatibility with a platform that drops support for old APIs and refuses to adopt new mainstream ones?
Valve has clearly decided, that it’s not worth the effort. Apple is hostile to developers and creates extra work because it wants all things to go through their systems.
And I agree. That apples actions make the correct business decision for valve to screw over a minority of users like you, is on valve, but also apple. That Valve needs nothing from apple to run on their systems is a patently stupid claim. Yes, they can make the changes necessary to get the client running a little better. But why would they? The whole gaming ecosystem is doomed if apples non-existent support for it fails to improve.
The difference on platforms like linux, is that valve has joined as a contributor for the whole ecosystem, when they need changes in the OS itself, they themselves can make them. And on windows the graphics pipeline, DirectX, is already industry standard, and the OS ALSO still supports all older versions, AND openGL and Vulcan, too.
Gaming on mac, is dead right now.
Yes, that’s where 30% cut should go.
I’m not the guy you are replying to, but that is just not how the world works.
According to steam’s own survey (https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam?platform=combined) osx (aka mac) users make up a whopping 1.4% of steam’s players. Now the question is: is it worth it to put in the work for mac? (work which i might add only works on mac as the apis that work on linux and windows do NOT work properly on mac)
Valve’s answer is no. Put simply even though they take 30%, its very clear that mac users do not make up a huge enough user base to put in the work. In other words the costs of mac development might exceed the income they’d get from max players (but this is just speculation, the point is, its very that Valve thinks its not profitable to develop for mac)
Why put in the work for linux then you might ask? Well linux uses the same APIs in most cases as windows (Vulkan, OpenGL, and in case of directx, vulkan can “emulate” directx), so its a lot less work to be compatible with linux than it is with mac. Also Valve owns a console which uses linux as an os, so they do not have to rely on propriatary windows.
Anyway my point is development costs are probably higher than the income they get from mac players.
Not to mention that osX users likely buy a lot fewer games.
Meanwhile linux is exploding, I’ve bought more games to play on steamdeck than my dad ever did to play on his mac.
This discussion started with Valve supposedly making an effort to support Macs. For quite some time now I was speaking about Steam itself. It works but is so shit it’s no wonder they’re bleeding users before they even buy or launch a game.
If you take 30% of sales it’s reasonable to expect you’re going to support your platform for a reasonable amount of time. We are still talking about staggering amounts of money even if it’s 1.4% user base that probably doesn’t purchase as much as Windows users.
With what we know about how Valve is being run internally it’s likely that it’s just not fun anymore and less profitable than alternatives. Incidentally, this leads to a very Google-like behavior which back in the day led me to drop Android for iOS, which in turn led to getting a Mac.
That’s unfortunately not how re-investing incoming money works.
Gaming on Linux only has a future because Valve used “windows money” to bring it alive.
Gaming on Mac, right now, has no prospects. And as it’s proprietary, the only corporation that can really change that, is apple. There is no reason to spend on it. Is that fair? No.
And apple is just as quilty of business decisions that screw a few users by taking things in a direction that’s better for the company and the majority of its customers.