And that would never happen. Same goes for communism. On paper its all pretty but in practice you have to deal with han beings who want their own thing.
The only way to push through communism (or anarchism, for that matter) is to force people to follow it. This inevitably leads to the dictatorships we all know and love where people were murdered by the thousands only for disagreeing. Corruption will flourish because you’ll keep having a richer class who just hide all their crap better, and those backroom deals are just awesome for a system corrupt to the core
Just acting as if the current problems with capitalism only exist because most people are blind while you “opened your eyes” is an attitude I’d expect from a 15 year old who is just repeating slogans
Personal property ≠ private property of the means of production
It’s astonishing how many people are ok with building bombs to kill kids in the Middle East or developing better drugs that are paywalled by private healthcare so that rich people can get richer, but instead of chalking this up to “human nature” we can see it as a product of repression and persuasion.
I’m pretty sure that no one is “fine” with bombs. The reason we have them though is that they are (still) a necessary evil. The second you start your sweet anarchistix community where were all friends and let eachother be free and do what we want you’ll get your ass run over by your dictator neighbor who loves what you did with the place.
You either prepare yourself to defend yourself or you will either be imprisoned, enslaved, or killed. Look at what Russia is doing right now.
I HATE violence, and if it were up to me, all guns would be gone tomorrow. However, I also am realistic enough to understand that that is not how the world works.
Same for drug development, I fully agree. This is a bad part of capitalism that needs to be resolved. Absolutely agree. However, I’m not so naive to just say “dump capitalism” because I also understand the positive aspects of capitalism.
How about instead wed try for a mix of it all. Best of all worlds, capitalism, socialism, anarchism. The raw power of limited and tightly controlled capitalism to create capital for all from capitalism, that can fund all the socialist systems like free healthcare, free education, free housing, etc.
Capitalism is not the only method of producing Capital. On the contrary, once competition plays itself out and monopolies form, it loses efficiency in doing so. Yet, we cannot simply introduce new Competition, and to break up monopoly just reduces efficiency. Rather, the next step that makes logical sense is to fold them into the public sector and plan them accordingly.
Socialism is not “social programs.” Socialism is a mode of production characterized by collectivization and planning in the primary of an economy.
I like that your argument against Anarchism is that people are selfish and greedy, so having a system where individuals have huge amounts of power and wealth and can get what they want is better.
Because (many) Anarchists would say that humans being selfish and wanting more for their own benefit is (one of) the most important reason(s) for stopping humans having power and control over others.
I didn’t read him as saying that though. They are not stating that capitalism is better, they are stating that human greed will attempt to corrupt every system.
There have to be safeguards in place to stop the greed. And yes, there might be safeguards within one anarchist collective (which anywhere else would be known as “laws”), but not another one that gets greedy and wants to take over your collective and has bigger guns.
Fighting against greed is an ongoing project no matter what political system you are under. Switching systems does not miraculously solve this.
Agreed. The flaw in the system is people. I hate to say it with the context of this comic, but the solution unfortunately isn’t “no rules” anarchy. That’s similar to the libertarian view, which somehow relies on the idea that if you get rid of regulation corporations and people will suddenly behave well by themselves when in fact history has proven time and again that it just turns into a big power grab. Corporations start dumping waste everywhere, get rid of environmental and worker protections, etc. whatever it takes to get ahead and make the most money. Same for people. There might be some places that can sort out some kind of effective shared governing and resource managment, but that still means rules, not anarchy.
Rules and laws keep people, the rich, and corporations from running roughshod. Problem is that those same people try to bend and shape those rules so that they can get away with doing just that. There is no “win” and being done, it’s a never-ending battle against greed.
Our leaders are a mix of three different parties because not all German people have the same opinions.
Yes, our leaders are a compromise between left-leaning voters and right-leaning voters. Respecting more people’s votes makes the country more democratic, not less.
If your question is about whether the people have free choice or if they can only choose one of the six parties currently in the Bundestag, the answer is the former. Little story:
Under Merkel, all German parties moved to be more migrant-friendly, until even Merkel’s conservative party (the most right wing party at the time) was largely okay with migration.
However, there are many anti-migration voters in Germany. So what did they do? Did they say “oh, we only have these five options, guess there’s no way I can vote against migration”? No, they founded a new party, the AfD, to be anti migration. This party quickly got into the Bundestag and rose to be a major party now.
Upon seeing the popularity of anti-migration policies, some of the other parties now shift torwards more anti-migration policies, too.
The German people have plenty of choice, and if a popular topic is ever not represented by the popular parties, it can quickly be made represented again.
(The reason I was assuming USA btw, is because another comment mentioned America. Also the USA is an easy example of a less democratic democracy.)
AfD is not anti-migration it’s anti-migrant. Anti-migration is just a facade they use to hide their racism. They are interested in kicking out the migrants not just stopping more from coming to germany.
What they do want is wage-slaves, slaves that will come to germany and do anything they want them to do, live like they are told to live and leave when they want them to leave.
And its ironic how germany the so-called “we won’t forget our nazi past” country now supports a neo-nazi party (they poll at 20%).
Alice weidel, AfD’s chancellor candidate recently talked about how she longs for her grandfather’s time. Her grandfather was an actual fucking Nazi.
AfD is also the same party whose leaders attended a neo-nazi conference at the start of 2024.
On the topic of democracy, 60% of Germans support a ban on arms deal to israel, how many parties support this? How many even acknowledge it?
We’re not talking about hypothetical individuals. This is a discussion of the present reality. In most of the developed world, but certainly in America.
The more power they are given, the more they will use to get more power for them and their mates.
Any system where people are given power over others will inevitably tend to absolutism by the ruling clique unless the people agitate against it. Not simply participate in the system as given as systems are inevitably co-opted.
The only way to try and get everyone to follow communism is through force, which requires a state, that is true. This is why I prefer anarcho-communism, where there is no state enforcing it.
It is also true under anarchism people have the option to not cooperate peacefully. As you said, humans are still humans at the end of the day and some will take advantage of others or hoard resources.
But I don’t think that is reason enough to not at least try to get there. Because under capitalism those same issues still exist, only people are expected to be okay with losing their autonomy and giving up their resources for the sake of a wealthy ruling class.
Regarding Communism, I mean, kinda? But at the point of Communism, where all production is owned and managed collectively along a common plan, what would you reasonably want that would cause you to want to go against the rest of Humanity?
I just can’t see how you aren’t describing feudalism once anarchist communities become large and widespread enough to create resource competition between them. Some people are just always going to accumulate some foothold of power and then it’s all downhill from there.
I want to love anarchism and communism, but I can never escape the fact that they require consistent, universal altruism in a way that just seems utopian to me. It comes across as maybe the ultimate example of perfect-is-the-enemy-of-good.
Communism doesn’t require “constant universal altruism,” the goal is a collectively owned and planned world Socialist Republic, kinda like Star Trek. There’s criticism that differences between communes in Anarchism could lead to a resurgance of competition, trade, and Capitalism eventually (which I’ll let Anarchists respond to, not me), but Communism in the Marxian understanding is the opposite of Utopian.
Star Trek isn’t a realistic model, though. I understand the goal you’re describing, but what’s the motivation that gets enough of the population to play along?
Star Trek is just to get an image in your head. Motivation is similar for other modes of production, labor for goods and services. At a lower stage, Communism would likely have systems like labor vouchers to credit an hour of labor, with more for more intense or skilled labor. At a higher phase with sufficient automation, this becomes less necessary to keep production going.
Wonder why we cant just hammer capitalism into the socialism everyone wants with money. Just beat the shit out of it with money until its utopia. Well, i imagine thats what the neoliberals would like to do. Too bad people give more money to evil people
Yeah.
And that would never happen. Same goes for communism. On paper its all pretty but in practice you have to deal with han beings who want their own thing.
The only way to push through communism (or anarchism, for that matter) is to force people to follow it. This inevitably leads to the dictatorships we all know and love where people were murdered by the thousands only for disagreeing. Corruption will flourish because you’ll keep having a richer class who just hide all their crap better, and those backroom deals are just awesome for a system corrupt to the core
Just acting as if the current problems with capitalism only exist because most people are blind while you “opened your eyes” is an attitude I’d expect from a 15 year old who is just repeating slogans
Personal property ≠ private property of the means of production
It’s astonishing how many people are ok with building bombs to kill kids in the Middle East or developing better drugs that are paywalled by private healthcare so that rich people can get richer, but instead of chalking this up to “human nature” we can see it as a product of repression and persuasion.
Who says I’m okay with bombs?
I’m pretty sure that no one is “fine” with bombs. The reason we have them though is that they are (still) a necessary evil. The second you start your sweet anarchistix community where were all friends and let eachother be free and do what we want you’ll get your ass run over by your dictator neighbor who loves what you did with the place.
You either prepare yourself to defend yourself or you will either be imprisoned, enslaved, or killed. Look at what Russia is doing right now.
I HATE violence, and if it were up to me, all guns would be gone tomorrow. However, I also am realistic enough to understand that that is not how the world works.
Same for drug development, I fully agree. This is a bad part of capitalism that needs to be resolved. Absolutely agree. However, I’m not so naive to just say “dump capitalism” because I also understand the positive aspects of capitalism.
How about instead wed try for a mix of it all. Best of all worlds, capitalism, socialism, anarchism. The raw power of limited and tightly controlled capitalism to create capital for all from capitalism, that can fund all the socialist systems like free healthcare, free education, free housing, etc.
Capitalism is not the only method of producing Capital. On the contrary, once competition plays itself out and monopolies form, it loses efficiency in doing so. Yet, we cannot simply introduce new Competition, and to break up monopoly just reduces efficiency. Rather, the next step that makes logical sense is to fold them into the public sector and plan them accordingly.
Socialism is not “social programs.” Socialism is a mode of production characterized by collectivization and planning in the primary of an economy.
I like that your argument against Anarchism is that people are selfish and greedy, so having a system where individuals have huge amounts of power and wealth and can get what they want is better.
Because (many) Anarchists would say that humans being selfish and wanting more for their own benefit is (one of) the most important reason(s) for stopping humans having power and control over others.
I didn’t read him as saying that though. They are not stating that capitalism is better, they are stating that human greed will attempt to corrupt every system.
There have to be safeguards in place to stop the greed. And yes, there might be safeguards within one anarchist collective (which anywhere else would be known as “laws”), but not another one that gets greedy and wants to take over your collective and has bigger guns.
Fighting against greed is an ongoing project no matter what political system you are under. Switching systems does not miraculously solve this.
Agreed. The flaw in the system is people. I hate to say it with the context of this comic, but the solution unfortunately isn’t “no rules” anarchy. That’s similar to the libertarian view, which somehow relies on the idea that if you get rid of regulation corporations and people will suddenly behave well by themselves when in fact history has proven time and again that it just turns into a big power grab. Corporations start dumping waste everywhere, get rid of environmental and worker protections, etc. whatever it takes to get ahead and make the most money. Same for people. There might be some places that can sort out some kind of effective shared governing and resource managment, but that still means rules, not anarchy.
Rules and laws keep people, the rich, and corporations from running roughshod. Problem is that those same people try to bend and shape those rules so that they can get away with doing just that. There is no “win” and being done, it’s a never-ending battle against greed.
I agree with your last paragraph fully.
I’d also say Anarchism is more a process than an end goal.
Those powerful individuals, however, were chosen by the citizens. (Assuming the system you’re talking about is a democracy.)
Out of an extremely limited pool where often our best option is the lesser evil.
Democracy in any current implementation is hardly democratic.
How is the German democracy hardly democratic?
Because abolishing democracy is not an available option? Is that what a system needs to be considered democratic?
I understand why USAmericans think of their system as hardly democratic, but that’s not the only type of democracy that exists.
I don’t know why Euros always assume everyone is American.
And how is it? Do your leaders reflect your views entirely or is it chock full of compromises you don’t have to make on your end?
The only real democracy is direct democracy, not party politics.
You just asdumed the person talking about German politics to be european, so theres that I guess.
Our leaders are a mix of three different parties because not all German people have the same opinions.
Yes, our leaders are a compromise between left-leaning voters and right-leaning voters. Respecting more people’s votes makes the country more democratic, not less.
If your question is about whether the people have free choice or if they can only choose one of the six parties currently in the Bundestag, the answer is the former. Little story:
Under Merkel, all German parties moved to be more migrant-friendly, until even Merkel’s conservative party (the most right wing party at the time) was largely okay with migration.
However, there are many anti-migration voters in Germany. So what did they do? Did they say “oh, we only have these five options, guess there’s no way I can vote against migration”? No, they founded a new party, the AfD, to be anti migration. This party quickly got into the Bundestag and rose to be a major party now.
Upon seeing the popularity of anti-migration policies, some of the other parties now shift torwards more anti-migration policies, too.
The German people have plenty of choice, and if a popular topic is ever not represented by the popular parties, it can quickly be made represented again.
(The reason I was assuming USA btw, is because another comment mentioned America. Also the USA is an easy example of a less democratic democracy.)
What the fuck kind of bullshit are you on bro?
AfD is not anti-migration it’s anti-migrant. Anti-migration is just a facade they use to hide their racism. They are interested in kicking out the migrants not just stopping more from coming to germany.
What they do want is wage-slaves, slaves that will come to germany and do anything they want them to do, live like they are told to live and leave when they want them to leave.
And its ironic how germany the so-called “we won’t forget our nazi past” country now supports a neo-nazi party (they poll at 20%).
Alice weidel, AfD’s chancellor candidate recently talked about how she longs for her grandfather’s time. Her grandfather was an actual fucking Nazi.
AfD is also the same party whose leaders attended a neo-nazi conference at the start of 2024.
On the topic of democracy, 60% of Germans support a ban on arms deal to israel, how many parties support this? How many even acknowledge it?
Which democracy are you talking about?
How is that contrary to my point? Many people are anti migration and so an anti migration party was founded.
What the reason for being anti migration is, be it racism or something else, doesn’t matter here.
That’s why I explicitly said “popular” topic.
The reason anti-migration found it’s way back into the Bundestag is because the voters care about migration policies.
The reason Israel arms deals aren’t talked about much is because most voters don’t give a fuck about what happens in the middle east.
It’s the tolerance paradox all over again.
We’re not talking about hypothetical individuals. This is a discussion of the present reality. In most of the developed world, but certainly in America.
The more power they are given, the more they will use to get more power for them and their mates.
Any system where people are given power over others will inevitably tend to absolutism by the ruling clique unless the people agitate against it. Not simply participate in the system as given as systems are inevitably co-opted.
The only way to try and get everyone to follow communism is through force, which requires a state, that is true. This is why I prefer anarcho-communism, where there is no state enforcing it.
It is also true under anarchism people have the option to not cooperate peacefully. As you said, humans are still humans at the end of the day and some will take advantage of others or hoard resources.
But I don’t think that is reason enough to not at least try to get there. Because under capitalism those same issues still exist, only people are expected to be okay with losing their autonomy and giving up their resources for the sake of a wealthy ruling class.
Regarding Communism, I mean, kinda? But at the point of Communism, where all production is owned and managed collectively along a common plan, what would you reasonably want that would cause you to want to go against the rest of Humanity?
I just can’t see how you aren’t describing feudalism once anarchist communities become large and widespread enough to create resource competition between them. Some people are just always going to accumulate some foothold of power and then it’s all downhill from there.
I want to love anarchism and communism, but I can never escape the fact that they require consistent, universal altruism in a way that just seems utopian to me. It comes across as maybe the ultimate example of perfect-is-the-enemy-of-good.
Communism doesn’t require “constant universal altruism,” the goal is a collectively owned and planned world Socialist Republic, kinda like Star Trek. There’s criticism that differences between communes in Anarchism could lead to a resurgance of competition, trade, and Capitalism eventually (which I’ll let Anarchists respond to, not me), but Communism in the Marxian understanding is the opposite of Utopian.
Star Trek isn’t a realistic model, though. I understand the goal you’re describing, but what’s the motivation that gets enough of the population to play along?
Star Trek is just to get an image in your head. Motivation is similar for other modes of production, labor for goods and services. At a lower stage, Communism would likely have systems like labor vouchers to credit an hour of labor, with more for more intense or skilled labor. At a higher phase with sufficient automation, this becomes less necessary to keep production going.
Wonder why we cant just hammer capitalism into the socialism everyone wants with money. Just beat the shit out of it with money until its utopia. Well, i imagine thats what the neoliberals would like to do. Too bad people give more money to evil people